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A true Apostolate must, in order to be fruitful, share two characteristics: supernaturalism, and being adapted to the environment that is to be converted. "Spectacle-Masses" have attracted crowds but have not produced the expected results. This Naturalism does not show forth the Apostolate techniques of the Savior...

Our priories, if they try to be truly supernatural, do not attract as many as they should. Why? We are undeniably often inaccessible to the men of this age. Our nearest goal is not to attract everyone, clearly, but those souls that display a certain openness to the Faith and to God's Love. Even these souls are sometimes discouraged when coming to our chapels. The reasons? A heightened mistrust, divisions and criticisms that show only pride, disparaging comments on clothing, bitter and useless political arguments. Thanks to the subliminal instruments of the devil... Thanks to those people who know better than God the speed with which souls should move forward... Let us try to lower the obstacles for conversions rather than heightening them. But that is not enough: we must attract. Missionaries have always achieved this for 2000 years: adapting as much as possible to the target population, guided by a sense of finality and by Christian moral principles.

Fr. Guillaume Gaud

THE "TRAD ENVIRONMENT"
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.co.uk/2012/...ments.html
There should not be a "Trad environment". Catholic Tradition is not supposed to be a social milieu, because Christianity is not that. Tradition must ressemble all social environments, and welcome them with their own identities. We are not for the elimination of classes. The dressing trends that have, little by little, become dominant among us reflect modesty - which is necessary -, but modesty is not limited to Trad dressing fashions. By willing to impose clothing rules, we put people off more than we form them. The consequence is a sort of freeing oneself excessively from those rules, which then moves onto immodesty. A further consequence is a sort of sclerotic portrayal of Tradition, which seems to live in the 1950s - not very attractive!

Yet the force of bringing people together within Catholic Tradition is in the logical relationship between our Faith and our daily life. This coherence must reflect our conviction and our sincerity, and not only rules. Catholic Truth is truly brought into light by it. And this is what attracts. But let us remain always as close as possible to our contemporaries of good will. We must then be firm with regard to ourselves, but shine with mercy and understanding for our neighbor. Then he will love our firmness!
Father Guillaume Gaud, SSPX
(Apostol, newsletter for the priories of Fabrègues and Perpignan, France
- La Porte Latine - "The dilemmas of our bastions of faith", excerpts)
Pretty good article.

There are many such issues in Tradlandia, which do not get addressed at present because Trads are (rightfully) preoccupied with the whole business of the future of the SSPX and (secondarily, but related) the business of the interpretation of VII and religious assent. Once the big questions have been answered, especially the first one, the other issues will slowly emerge. At some point, Trad priests of all kinds are going to have to start explaining the very real distinctions between Trad religious beliefs and traditional, as in pre-1965, social customs. Things are intertwined here, so there will be many thorny issues. As T.S. Eliot said, "culture is the incarnation of the religion of a people."  Yet the religion is not the culture either.
It will be interesting to see if the detractors of Fr. Ripperger in the other thread that criticized traditionalists - http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...717.0.html -  will pile on here as well or silently expose their hypocrisy.
(04-01-2012, 10:38 AM)Beware_the_Ides Wrote: [ -> ]It will be interesting to see if the detractors of Fr. Ripperger in the other thread that criticized traditionalists - http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...717.0.html -  will pile on here as well or silently expose their hypocrisy.

To be fair the content of the two is quite different.
(04-01-2012, 10:40 AM)Aragon Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-01-2012, 10:38 AM)Beware_the_Ides Wrote: [ -> ]It will be interesting to see if the detractors of Fr. Ripperger in the other thread that criticized traditionalists - http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...717.0.html -  will pile on here as well or silently expose their hypocrisy.

To be fair the content of the two is quite different.

For it to be "fair", Fr. Gaud would have to recite, verbatim, Fr. Ripperger's sermon. 

And I disagree that the content is "quite different."  As a matter of fact, I find it to be quite similar; however, Fr. Ripperger's comments were much more well-developed.
(03-31-2012, 10:16 AM)a83192 Wrote: [ -> ]A true Apostolate must, in order to be fruitful, share two characteristics: supernaturalism, and being adapted to the environment that is to be converted. "Spectacle-Masses" have attracted crowds but have not produced the expected results. This Naturalism does not show forth the Apostolate techniques of the Savior...

Our priories, if they try to be truly supernatural, do not attract as many as they should. Why? We are undeniably often inaccessible to the men of this age. Our nearest goal is not to attract everyone, clearly, but those souls that display a certain openness to the Faith and to God's Love. Even these souls are sometimes discouraged when coming to our chapels. The reasons? A heightened mistrust, divisions and criticisms that show only pride, disparaging comments on clothing, bitter and useless political arguments. Thanks to the subliminal instruments of the devil... Thanks to those people who know better than God the speed with which souls should move forward... Let us try to lower the obstacles for conversions rather than heightening them. But that is not enough: we must attract. Missionaries have always achieved this for 2000 years: adapting as much as possible to the target population, guided by a sense of finality and by Christian moral principles.

Fr. Guillaume Gaud

THE "TRAD ENVIRONMENT"
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.co.uk/2012/...ments.html
There should not be a "Trad environment". Catholic Tradition is not supposed to be a social milieu, because Christianity is not that. Tradition must ressemble all social environments, and welcome them with their own identities. We are not for the elimination of classes. The dressing trends that have, little by little, become dominant among us reflect modesty - which is necessary -, but modesty is not limited to Trad dressing fashions. By willing to impose clothing rules, we put people off more than we form them. The consequence is a sort of freeing oneself excessively from those rules, which then moves onto immodesty. A further consequence is a sort of sclerotic portrayal of Tradition, which seems to live in the 1950s - not very attractive!

Yet the force of bringing people together within Catholic Tradition is in the logical relationship between our Faith and our daily life. This coherence must reflect our conviction and our sincerity, and not only rules. Catholic Truth is truly brought into light by it. And this is what attracts. But let us remain always as close as possible to our contemporaries of good will. We must then be firm with regard to ourselves, but shine with mercy and understanding for our neighbor. Then he will love our firmness!
Father Guillaume Gaud, SSPX
(Apostol, newsletter for the priories of Fabrègues and Perpignan, France
- La Porte Latine - "The dilemmas of our bastions of faith", excerpts)

Do you think that's true-the bolded part? I don't know if I can really agree with that. Of course there are problems. But then you get a taste of the liturgy and if it resonates; you're hooked. Nothing else in terms of peripherals matters. I'm willing to put up with that for the sake of the liturgy.

If I want friendly, I can go to the Baptists. They have that down. They're better at it by a long shot.
(04-01-2012, 04:33 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]Do you think that's true-the bolded part? I don't know if I can really agree with that. Of course there are problems. But then you get a taste of the liturgy and if it resonates; you're hooked. Nothing else in terms of peripherals matters. I'm willing to put up with that for the sake of the liturgy.

If I want friendly, I can go to the Baptists. They have that down. They're better at it by a long shot.

I think you answered your own question - in the part I bolded.  The priests at my FSSP parish made very similar comments to the men's group  last October - actually, they were admonitions that I personally found to be very off-putting, at first.  After I gave it more thought, I realized that their comments were based on what they have experienced through much closer and broader contact with probably almost everyone who passes through our parish (in and out of the confessional).  Even though mine is a small parish and I have been very active in the men's group and with the pastoral advisory council, I realize that there are a lot of members that I don't know.  Also, I have personally heard some of these well-intended but misguided comments to visitors regarding ours being a "real mass," thereby displaying a spiritual pride and impolitely inferring a superiority to our guests and 'their mass.'  I definitely believe that is a conclusion you need to let folks arrive at on their own and any attempts to force those opinions in any way have more of a polarizing effect than not.  I realized then also, that if I've heard this happen a few times over the years, these priests have probably heard it many many more times.  Now that I have heard this from Fr. Gaud, Ripperger and my priests, I'm fairly certain these are not isolated incidents but more prevalent than some would like to admit - or would mistakenly attribute to a false sense of charity or fraternal correction.

I think your comment regarding the Baptists is interesting too because I'm sure most all trads would agree that the NO is a 'Protestantized' Catholic service.  So, when NO Catholics first come to try out the TLM, they experience a culture shock.  Walk a mile in their shoes:  they show up dressed 'less-than-appropriately,' perhaps, or without a veil; they don't know when to sit, kneel, stand, beat their breast, sign themselves with the Cross, genuflect, nor the appropriate responses.  If they can get past that awkwardness, then they likely also have to deal with their neighbor's askance looks (perhaps before, during and after mass).  I think that alone can be intimidating enough to turn some away and it does't help that trads are outdone in charity "by a long shot"  - and what's worse is that trads are outdone by those they would insist others believe are certainly going to Hell.

Jacafamala, you and I were (I am assuming by your comments) drawn past 'the problems' by the liturgy, but how many others who may be a little more thin-skinned are shewn away by the prickly personalities they encounter?

Imitation of Christ.  Chapter 14.  Of Avoiding Rash Judgments Wrote:Many secretly seek themselves in what they do, and are not sensible of it...Difference of thoughts and opinions is too frequently the source of dissensions amongst friends and neighbors, amongst religious and devout persons.

Practical Reflections
We frequently allow ourselves to be biased in our judgments by the inclinations of the heart, instead of being guided by the light of understanding.  Through self-love we ordinarily approve in ourselves what in others we frequently condemn, and are as much alive to the defects of our neighbor as we are blind to our own.  [emphasis mine]
The article is pure idiocy.  It is every bit as stupid as Fr. Ripperger's disproportionate nonsense.

The whole "non-Trad" Church is collapsing because of it's "loss of Catholic identity" and these fools are worried about superficial reflections of that very identity? 

There should be a "trad environment" and it should be the only environment that can call itself Catholic. 

I became a trad because I realized how sick and untrue the rest of the world is societally speaking.  Anything good in it is living off of the Catholic environment it inherited. 

The worst part of the Novus Ordo "church" was the phoney baloney "community building" ie.  nagging for money, involvement, volunteers for a thousand lousy "ministries"  droning back responses in Mass was the tip of the iceberg in terms of invasiveness.  The insipid "sign of peace"?    I never, never, never want to go back to shaking the hand of the person next to me at mass whether I like them or not. 

The frumps at Church can be beautiful in their own way.  The sourpusses (though they are really a tiny minority) can be a sourpuss.  I am friendly with the people I want to be friendly with.  I don't have to "like" anyone or attempt to "attract" any other souls.  If I do my best, I'll attract people that want to be attracted to the things I"m attracted to and I'll also attract those that hate those same things and that same Person. 

The rest is social engineering by priests that are looking for more influence for themselves and relying less on Christ.
(04-02-2012, 12:04 AM)Gerard Wrote: [ -> ]The article is pure idiocy.  It is every bit as stupid as Fr. Ripperger's disproportionate nonsense.

The whole "non-Trad" Church is collapsing because of it's "loss of Catholic identity" and these fools are worried about superficial reflections of that very identity? 

There should be a "trad environment" and it should be the only environment that can call itself Catholic. 

I became a trad because I realized how sick and untrue the rest of the world is societally speaking.  Anything good in it is living off of the Catholic environment it inherited. 

The worst part of the Novus Ordo "church" was the phoney baloney "community building" ie.  nagging for money, involvement, volunteers for a thousand lousy "ministries"  droning back responses in Mass was the tip of the iceberg in terms of invasiveness.  The insipid "sign of peace"?    I never, never, never want to go back to shaking the hand of the person next to me at mass whether I like them or not. 

The frumps at Church can be beautiful in their own way.  The sourpusses (though they are really a tiny minority) can be a sourpuss.  I am friendly with the people I want to be friendly with.  I don't have to "like" anyone or attempt to "attract" any other souls.  If I do my best, I'll attract people that want to be attracted to the things I"m attracted to and I'll also attract those that hate those same things and that same Person. 

The rest is social engineering by priests that are looking for more influence for themselves and relying less on Christ.


Wow!  You start off your rant by referring to clergymen as pure idiots, stupid, fools and to their disproportionate nonsense.  I guess we should just put them aside and ask you to step up to the pulpit in their stead?

Yes, you don’t have to “like” anyone; you have to love everyone.

Yes, you don’t have to “attract” any other souls; you have to teach all nations whatsoever Jesus commanded.

Maybe you should take your own advice and rely a little more on Christ.  I hope you will reflect upon this during Holy Week, that you will exercise a little humility and consider revising your comments.  I sincerely wish you a blessed Holy Week.

Catechism of the Catholic Church Wrote:850  The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord's missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."341 The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.342

904 "Christ . . . fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy . . . but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word"438

To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher and of each believer.439

905 Lay people also fulfill their prophetic mission by evangelization, "that is, the proclamation of Christ by word and the testimony of life." For lay people, "this evangelization . . . acquires a specific property and peculiar efficacy because it is accomplished in the ordinary circumstances of the world."440

This witness of life, however, is not the sole element in the apostolate; the true apostle is on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers . . . or to the faithful.441


2044 The fidelity of the baptized is a primordial condition for the proclamation of the Gospel and for the Church's mission in the world. In order that the message of salvation can show the power of its truth and radiance before men, it must be authenticated by the witness of the life of Christians. "The witness of a Christian life and good works done in a supernatural spirit have great power to draw men to the faith and to God."88

2472 The duty of Christians to take part in the life of the Church impels them to act as witnesses of the Gospel and of the obligations that flow from it. This witness is a transmission of the faith in words and deeds. Witness is an act of justice that establishes the truth or makes it known.269
Gerard,

I cannot simply believe my eyes at what I read here. You call clergy men names like that for being open and honest? I know of what he speaks. I am often in traditional circles and am amazed at the damage we do to each other by our conversations, our less than charitable attitudes and our feeling of superiority. All these have to be accounted for. It is better we deal with it when we have the time to atone for our error.

I found Fr. Ripperger's website quite by accident and have been using it for the last 3 years. The good priest speaks honestly for the good of us all.

If you have nothing constructive to say (in praise or in critique) then please, hold your tongue.

Philippus
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