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Full Version: Introducing people to the TLM via the Novus Ordo
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Do you think the Novus Ordo can be used to introduce people to the Traditional Mass? Such as introducing ad orientem, communion on the tongue, reverent music, et cetera? Or do you think there are better ways to introduce people to the Old Mass; such as teaching them how to use a missal or doing the readings in the vernacular?
I take the view that you throw them in the water and let them swim.    :)
It depends on the person being introduced. What is their background. If they are orthodox in doctrine, then abandoning the Novus Ordo in favor of the Mass that truly reflects the Catholic Faith should be a breeze. Yes, it takes time to adjust, but after a while it becomes natural.
Communion on the tongue, nice vestments, nice music, ad orientem, etc. are really superfluous things when it comes down to the main differences between a TLM and so called "ordinary form." Like the song goes, "ain't nothing like the real thing."
I'm for the method of tossing them in the water, with one caveat. I'd reintroduce the Missa Cantata. Folks that are used to the ordinary form like to participate, and they could be introduced more easily with this Mass. Look at how effective EWTN was with introducing bits of Latin and the sung parts of ordinaries. Don't get too tricky, stick to the basics, don't introduce polyphony. One more thing, I'd take advantage of Pope Pius XII's allowance of the faithful chanting the Pater Noster. These folks are used to this, and chanting it in Latin would elevate their natural inclination, and suppress their hand raising and praying or holding hands and praying. I'd bet a buck within a year they'd be participating at a dignified and reverent Missa Cantata, like it was supposed to be according to Vatican II documents. The priests according to the documents were responsible for teaching the ordinaries in Latin. This would harness their exuberance and stifle their silliness. Show tune singers and folk music singers, and dippy rock and rollers, be gone !

tim
What Tim said.

Also, CP, I agree that the vestments, CotT, music, ad orientam, etc are superfluous things when it comes to the main differences between the TLM and NO, but what do you think the bulk of people attending the NO notice?

They'll notice the former (vestments, music, etc).  I am thoroughly convinced none of them know the prayers or what is (really) being said.  And I think that shows. 

I think it'd be easier to make a "switch" on them with the NO looking like a TLM.  Fwiw.
Most of the transitions with priests that you hear about start with changing some of the externals of the Novus Ordo such as vestments, ad orientiam, communion posture, et al. and then progress to the Novus Ordo in Latin and finally to the Traditional Mass. Any of the changes to the Novus Ordo in a traditional direction, I believe, will ultimately end up at the Traditional Latin Mass because they are usually initially driven by theological inquiry that can ultimately arrive at only one conclusion. In other words, once people have an inclination to make the Novus Ordo more holy, I believe it is only a matter of time and progress in this inquiry before they go full fledged to the TLM.
On all of this I'm with St. Thomas of Aquinas in his book on the pholosophy of teaching, he said teach memorization and learn by rote.  St. Benedict's Monastic Breviary stresses this. In one week of his psalm scheme depending on feasts you will say as many as 279 pslams. That's the point. Recitation and the repetition drives the understanding home. Don't worry about the Latin. If you memorize the Suscipiat and keep repeating it, it will sink in.  If in the day, third grade boys could be taught to serve Mass in Latin, so can anyone. Those small Sunday Missals would be the perfect tool, and they can be carried in a man's pant's pocket, or a lady's purse.

tim
(04-25-2012, 10:23 AM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]I'm for the method of tossing them in the water, with one caveat. I'd reintroduce the Missa Cantata. Folks that are used to the ordinary form like to participate, and they could be introduced more easily with this Mass. Look at how effective EWTN was with introducing bits of Latin and the sung parts of ordinaries. Don't get too tricky, stick to the basics, don't introduce polyphony. One more thing, I'd take advantage of Pope Pius XII's allowance of the faithful chanting the Pater Noster. These folks are used to this, and chanting it in Latin would elevate their natural inclination, and suppress their hand raising and praying or holding hands and praying. I'd bet a buck within a year they'd be participating at a dignified and reverent Missa Cantata, like it was supposed to be according to Vatican II documents. The priests according to the documents were responsible for teaching the ordinaries in Latin. This would harness their exuberance and stifle their silliness. Show tune singers and folk music singers, and dippy rock and rollers, be gone !

tim

While I certainly agree that chanting the Pater Noster in Latin will quickly suppress any attempts to hand-holding, I think that there is a significant theological problem with the laity reciting or chanting the Pater Noster with the priest at Mass. The Pater Noster is a priestly prayer (in the context of Holy Mass), and always has been (at least in the Roman Rite) ever since Pope St. Gregory the Great fixed its place as directly following the Canon. It is always prayed with the priest's hands open (i.e. as at the Collect) because this posture denotes intercession. This is how the priest prays when he prays on behalf of all else present. The concept of the priest praying this prayer with the people but with his hands in the intercessory position reflects conflicting theological-liturgical principles and is a rupture with liturgical tradition.

I know that the Sacred Congregation of Rites authorized this before the council, but I stand by my explanation and I think that was a mistake for the above reason (insofar as I have any authority to be judging the veracity of the Sacred Congregation's judgments, I suppose!).

For what it is worth, this theological-liturgical dissonance is evidenced in the Novus Ordo as well: the rubrics have the priest's hands in the intercessory position even though in the rubrics too the laity recite or chant the entirety of the Pater Noster. That is the only place (I think) in the oh-so-participatory Novus Ordo where this rubrical dissonance exists.

Lastly, I am not trying to be some curmudgeonly naysayer, and I am not one who thinks that liturgy is the only thing that matters, not dogma, theology, morality, etc.

I also respect Tim and his posts and do not mean to attack. I desperately want to figure out how to get more people to the TLM and to Tradition!
We had the opposite experience.

My wife and I were bringing a Protestant woman to the TLM on a fairly consistant basis [two or three times per month] and she was very attracted to the Mass and the Church, for about two years.
Then she made the mistake of going to an RCIA class where they made them go to an abusive NO Mass, and she lost interest in the Faith.
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