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I'm going to go back on my word to let it be and provide the reasoning behind my counter position. Not to create conflict, hopefully, but it seems appropriate.

Man is fallen.

Our tools -- our institutions, systems, governments, methods, etc -- are flawed.

Always.

Flawed.

Sometimes extremely flawed.

One could posit a reasonable argument that during this era we suffer from the greatest profusion and magnitude of flaws (error) ever (or darn close to it!).

But, for instance, Universities have always been a magnet for wretched, scheming men.

The academicians of the University of Paris were a driving force in the martyrdom of Saint Joan d'Arc.

But also.

The Douay Rheims translation is a product of the Catholic University system.

We will never have a perfect set of tools.

God put us in this place and time with these tools.

We must do what we can in a Catholic manner with what we have. That does not preclude other actions.

We work as if it all depends upon us and pray as if it all depends upon God.

God requires that we participate.

Yes our portion as far as active participation likely is weak. Even pathetic.

But, Our Sweet Jesus didn't make the food for that crowd out of thin air.

He could have.

He required that a small boy give his meager fish and bread.

A truly pathetic bit, really sorta laughable in the face of the huge crowd.

But Jesus takes our pathetic bits, with the key element of our prayers and sacrifices united to His Passion, and He uses them as He wishes.
I don't think any petition I ever signed did a damned thing to change a bad decision or course of evil.
I don't see it as backing away from my initial statement at all. Clarified perhaps, but with the original statement including the words "tacit approval" I think it stands. Perhaps it was sloppy, but it was certainly not made in passion. Perhaps haste as I was among 7 noisy children trying to get on with their day at the time I made it. So I will cop to haste and be done with it. But I was hoping for more from you, which is why I asked for you to back up the reason I ought to apologize.

OTOH, You may want to check yourself for pride as someone merely disagreed with what you think is a good and honorable tactic. As you seemed to take unecessary offense to the opinion.

I was hoping you would defend the idea of the petition as a good work. As I am open to correction. But it now appears that my  comment stung and that is all that appears to have bothered you about it.

What follows is not directed at you at all, but is just a general statement. One to consider by us all, and is certainly open to scrutiny. So, I will beg your pardon from the beginning as I do not mean to offend you, or anyone else.

"We have no king but Caeser!". And remember to trust not in princes.

And for the record, I am not offended in the slightest. And if we are in the same choir, which I think we are, you may want to question why someone may want to take a rest, where you choose to sing a note. It appears that we are interprating the score in different ways.

That's all.
I see you offered more, KG. I was posting my last before I realized you came back with what I was looking forward to receiving from you.

Thank you, and will look forward to reading it and contemplating more as time allows.
(05-09-2012, 11:33 AM)ggreg Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think any petition I ever signed did a damned thing to change a bad decision or course of evil.

I don't doubt that.

I've experienced positive results, but I've also dealt with enormous wastes of time. If I tallied them the wastes of time may well be the winners.

Adam, my writing style is truly wretched and one of the reasons for my avoidance of posting. A product of spending far too long working with a former attorney whose writing style shaped mine. I sound like a prig. So I apologize unabashedly for my tone, it's not intended, but there it is. But, while I struggle with pride along with virtually the entire litany of sins, honestly pride isn't at the top of my list.  My objection wasn't to you taking a different view. It was, very specifically, to you flat out stating participants, "think the Americanist Heresy is OK" and are tacitly approving it. That is a false statement.
KG, your writing is far from wretched. But it is interesting that I was thinking you sounded a bit like an attonrney in looking at my words. Which I've never seen before.

I was finally able to read with proper attention your additional reply.

You make excellent points and one would be hard pressed to disagree.

But, if you will allow me one other point to make concerning the University System. Excellent point about the DR coming out of it. But, I can't lose sight of the fact that it had to be down there, meaning France, since the enemy stole Oxford and Cambridge and everything else belonging to the Church.

They did it from the outside, not within the system. I am having a hard time seeing the turn around occur within the system of Mammon.

I beg your pardon that much of my thinking as of late has been on the Americanist Heresy. I have been pouring over the writings of Msgr. Delasus, Pascendi, Immortale Dei, and have also been reading a book by Hugh Akins entitled No King but Caeser. So I may be a little one dimensional as of late. And I do have a tendency towards absorbtion of thought to the point of obsession at times.

Also read a great piece in the April issue of Culture Wars entitled The Sad Story of Thomism in North America. It dealt mostly with Jacques Maritain and his idea that he could reason with the Social Engineers and pure Empiricists at the University of Chicago. Misguided liberal that he was.
Thanks for the interesting exchange, guys. In any case: signed.
(05-09-2012, 03:54 PM)Adam Wayne Wrote: [ -> ]But, if you will allow me one other point to make concerning the University System. Excellent point about the DR coming out of it. But, I can't lose sight of the fact that it had to be down there, meaning France, since the enemy stole Oxford and Cambridge and everything else belonging to the Church.

They did it from the outside, not within the system.

True. The English Catholic scholars were exiled. Seems to be a theme with Catholics!

(05-09-2012, 03:54 PM)Adam Wayne Wrote: [ -> ]I am having a hard time seeing the turn around occur within the system of Mammon.

Certainly not.

But here and there small skirmishes can be won.

In much of this I look at it from the perspective of what can be done to at least give the young people and young families starting out something of a chance of getting started before it all goes entirely to Hades. So as wretched as our political tool set is I think we have to use it in an intelligent manner to push back in an effort to buy time. We need the young and their children, firmly established in the Faith, to strengthen our ranks – they are our source of priests and religious. And they are the most vulnerable economically -- and the first serious round of persecution will be economic as it was for the English and the groundwork is already being laid. We are not going to face the sort of hot tempered attacks that were after blood like they faced in the Latin countries. We will face the kind of calculated effort to kill the Faith that was faced in England. Cool heads will direct it. It will be horrifyingly effective, just as it was in England. When good men must choose between the Faith and feeding children there will be many tragic decisions made.

In a nutshell, forcing a concession on something like this buys valuable time.  Efforts like this, when they work, and they sometimes do work, slow down the march of the servants of the enemy.  The time can be used well.

No worries on anything else, truly.
Signed, with pleasure.
Are we all not to be defenders of the faith? Why be so negative about signing a petition that may do so.e good? Personally, I think that more drastic actions should probably be taken, though.
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