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In the spirit of trying to make some of the claims of traditionalism more intelligible to those who are unfamiliar with it, I wanted to start the following thread on the topic of "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus", with the topic centered around concrete texts from the Teaching Authority of the Church.  I know that this topic has been done to death on FE, but I think that keeping it centered on text can help provide a fruitful discussion (and I don't think we've had a thread on this topic for at least a month so we're definitely due  :LOL:) .

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Which one of these is not like the others?

I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved.
-- Pope Sylvester II,  Profession of Faith  991

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her...
--Pope Eugene IV,  Cantate Domino 1441

You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the Apostles, martyred Saint Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: 'Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God.' Moreover, Saint Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: 'Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ' (Epsitle 141)....We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.
-- Pope Gregory XVI,  Summo Jugiter Studio  1832

There is only one true, holy, Catholic Church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded on Peter by the word of the Lord (St. Cyprian, Epistle 43), outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church (ibid, On the Unity of the Catholic Church). ... Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."
-- Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem  1854

Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.
-- Pope Pius XII,  Humani Generis  1950

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church....It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation...
--Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith,  "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church" (Under presidency of Cardinal Levada and ratified by Pope Benedict XVI)  2007

I think this will highlight even more so the absurdity into which Roman Catholicism has fallen into.

Perhaps this will be good.

Well, the last one, obviously. And the reason why it is, is for starters, it's not complete with the necessary words:

Quote:THIRD QUESTION

Why was the expression “subsists in” adopted instead of the simple word “is”?

RESPONSE

The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.[11]

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

(http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congre...es_en.html)


This is no different than saying that Aristotle could be considered a Christian, joined to Christ, in his search for the truth, or any philosopher who had no other viable, true Catholic way of finding and joining to Christ. It's a response to the recognition that Protestants of today are not Protestants of yore. Just as the pagans were saved without hearing the Gospel by natural law, placed in man's heart by God, and they found something of truth which spoke to their heart, and they believed in God though they could not formulate the words properly.

There is quite the difference between those who know the Church is the True Church, and those who simply don't know.

There's also the issue of context- what were those other pope's totally addressing?

Seems like a good reading of Romans would help many trads who have fallen off the turnip wagon and hit their head on the smaller rock of themselves, if they can't understand what's being said.

Which one of these things is not like the other:

Steak
Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen

Hint: The other popes were talking about those who know the steakhouse is where to eat... not the elements constructing the steak in a very specific order of amino acids joining together to form protein, which forms, with other bits, steak. Though one cannot eat these elements which make up steak in varying quantities, than that which is specifically design by God to be steak, to have steak. Nor can one take just a part of the steak's elemental structure, and eat that, and have steak. Many put A-1 on Carbon and Hydrogen, or whatever combination, excepting that first attempt. But if all it takes to get to heaven is eating steak, how could God damn someone who was meaning to "eat steak", when all they had was some combo of the elemtns making up the amino acids making up the necessary structure to be steak? For He has placed in their heart to eat steak, and even then, it must be us who has the chance to even know the correct steakhouse. But even St. Padre Pio, and others, have said there are carbon/oxygen eaters (and other combos) of not-steak eaters destined to heaven.

Romans 2 and 3 cover this stuff.

So do the early Saints:

Clement of Alexandria

"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies1:5 [A.D. 208]).

Origen

"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).

"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).



Augustine

"We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church. For heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" (Faith and the Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

"[J]ust as baptism is of no profit to the man who renounces the world in words and not in deeds, so it is of no profit to him who is baptized in heresy or schism; but each of them, when he amends his ways, begins to receive profit from that which before was not profitable, but was yet already in him" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:4[6] [A.D. 400]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).

"Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him" (ibid., 141:5).

... ad nauseam

Apparently, even this can be twisted. We just need to understand it properly. The same goes for Dignitatis Humanae, Lumen Gentium, etc.

(06-24-2012, 11:54 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]There's also the issue of context- what were those other pope's totally addressing?

Yes, I'm not sure that short quotations are really the best way to get a sense of the development of Catholic doctrine over the ages.

(06-24-2012, 01:51 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-24-2012, 11:54 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]There's also the issue of context- what were those other pope's totally addressing?

Yes, I'm not sure that short quotations are really the best way to get a sense of the development of Catholic doctrine over the ages.

Development doesn't cover a complete contradiction of faith.  One quote says that salvation, in at least some ways, can be found outside of the Roman Catholic Church, while the other quotations say that those who die outside of the Roman Catholic Church are destined for hell.

It's not a matter of context.  I agree that this is a legitimate concern when looking at short quotes, but it's too often used as an excuse in these matters.  It's clear what Pope Eugene meant.  And it's clear that he would call the CDF's stance at least quasi-heretical.

Let's keep it real.

Couldn't God use a heretical church to introduce people to Catholic dogmas prior to then leading them to the Church? In the same way that the Law needed to come before the Gospel to prepare the way for it, could not heretical churches be used in the same way? I'm sure there are some people in the world who initially discovered Christianity through the protestant churches and then later found the Church when they were more spiritually mature. That's how I always understood that passage from VatII anyway.

God can use whatever He chooses to bring one to the True Faith, but false religions are not means of salvation.

(06-24-2012, 05:56 PM)GloriaPatri Wrote: [ -> ]Couldn't God use a heretical church to introduce people to Catholic dogmas prior to then leading them to the Church? In the same way that the Law needed to come before the Gospel to prepare the way for it, could not heretical churches be used in the same way? I'm sure there are some people in the world who initially discovered Christianity through the protestant churches and then later found the Church when they were more spiritually mature. That's how I always understood that passage from VatII anyway.

Yes, but that's not what is being said by the CDF.  The Church has always acknowledged that people can learn and grow to conversion to the Church from other various sects of Christianity.  It has always taught that there are certain truths to be found in other religions.

But the convert is still saved by the Church.  Christ calls them in spite of their being a Lutheran, not through Lutheranism itself.  There may be truths in Lutheranism that help lead one to Christ's Church but that doesn't mean that Lutheranism is itself a vehicle for salvation.  If that's the case, then what's so great about Catholicism?  It's just a better version of Christianity than the other versions available?  That's certainly not what the Church and the Scriptures have taught for 2,000 years.