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(07-13-2012, 02:21 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:19 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]The ink on your return forms isn't even dry, and you're back on the Inquisition, eh?

Abyssus abyssum invocat.

Lingua ignis est.
(07-13-2012, 02:31 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:26 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:22 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:17 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:14 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:08 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Sure you would.

You'd be in the front row as your best friend, your sister or your cousin would be burned alive for "obstinate heresy."

Spare me the bullshit.

Bullshit?

At least one of my friends--a lapsed Catholic who's now something of an atheist--and I have actually discussed the matter, both of us acknowledging that, in my "ideal" society (ideal used loosely, of course), his fate would be similar to Bardolf's in Henry V.

Yes, bullshit. Or, if you prefer Latin, stercum taurineum.

And I'd bet anything you'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't live up to these pious hypocritical internet standards in real life. Talks about the Inquisition and prosecuting heresy are just hot air, nothing more.

And I bet you're underestimating my lack of empathy for others, as well as my strong commitment to my religious beliefs and vision of the common good.

I know perfectly well where you're coming from, Resurrexi, and I don't doubt your sincerity. I've been there before.

It's precisely because of it that I can say that all that talk about heresy is essentially hypocritical bullshit. I know those thought processes inside out. It's just intellectual masturbation and daydreaming, nothing else. You'll eventually recognise it, if not publicly, at least privately.

A bit romantic, to be sure, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it mental masturbation.

Liberalism (in its broadest definition) and secularism aren't necessarily bound to last for ever. It's quite possible that there will be, at some point in future history, something of a return to circumstances favorable to a Catholic society. If that day comes, then it will be good to know that use of state authority to impose the true faith isn't out of the question because of some silly nonsense about "human rights."

"Silly nonsense" that would affect most likely your loved ones, if not yourself, if the authorities happen to profess that which you abhor.

It's easy to pontificate about faith and the inquisition in the comfort of your sanitised internet world. When things get real, though, it's an altogether different game.
Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.
(07-13-2012, 02:34 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:21 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:19 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]The ink on your return forms isn't even dry, and you're back on the Inquisition, eh?

Abyssus abyssum invocat.

Lingua ignis est.

Corde enim creditur ad justitiam : ore autem confessio fit ad salutem.
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.

As I said before, I understand and sympathise where you're coming from.

But if and when you think about these issues more deeply, you'll hopefully realise the conundrum you're in just because you want to be intellectually faithful to a Church and a weltanschauung that only exists in history books and old theology manuals.
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:34 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:21 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:19 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]The ink on your return forms isn't even dry, and you're back on the Inquisition, eh?

Abyssus abyssum invocat.

Lingua ignis est.

Corde enim creditur ad justitiam : ore autem confessio fit ad salutem.

Non omnis qui dicit mihi Domine Domine intrabit in regnum caelorum sed qui facit voluntatem Patris mei qui in caelis est ipse intrabit in regnum caelorum.
(07-13-2012, 02:39 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:34 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:21 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:19 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]The ink on your return forms isn't even dry, and you're back on the Inquisition, eh?

Abyssus abyssum invocat.

Lingua ignis est.

Corde enim creditur ad justitiam : ore autem confessio fit ad salutem.

Non omnis qui dicit mihi Domine Domine intrabit in regnum caelorum sed qui facit voluntatem Patris mei qui in caelis est ipse intrabit in regnum caelorum.

You want to quote Scripture the rest of the night or drive a point across?

Those who do the will of the Father are those who are already regenerated and elected unto salvation. No-one can come to the Father unless the Father wills it. It's a moot point.
(07-13-2012, 02:38 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.

As I said before, I understand and sympathise where you're coming from.

But if and when you think about these issues more deeply, you'll hopefully realise the conundrum you're in just because you want to be intellectually faithful to a Church and a weltanschauung that only exists in history books and old theology manuals.

No, I want to be intellectually faithful to my Church--a real, historical community which at times has delegated to the state authority to enforce its teachings. I'm not about to ignore this fact, nor am I about to admit that we Catholics were wrong on so serious a matter.
(07-13-2012, 02:44 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:38 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.

As I said before, I understand and sympathise where you're coming from.

But if and when you think about these issues more deeply, you'll hopefully realise the conundrum you're in just because you want to be intellectually faithful to a Church and a weltanschauung that only exists in history books and old theology manuals.

No, I want to be intellectually faithful to my Church--a real, historical community which at times has delegated to the state authority to enforce its teachings. I'm not about to ignore this fact, nor am I about to admit that we Catholics were wrong on so serious a matter.

Of course you're not "about to admit it," else your faith would probably crumble.

It's a tough spot you're in, a spot that will only get tougher as time goes by. I don't envy your position.
(07-13-2012, 02:51 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:44 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:38 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.

As I said before, I understand and sympathise where you're coming from.

But if and when you think about these issues more deeply, you'll hopefully realise the conundrum you're in just because you want to be intellectually faithful to a Church and a weltanschauung that only exists in history books and old theology manuals.

No, I want to be intellectually faithful to my Church--a real, historical community which at times has delegated to the state authority to enforce its teachings. I'm not about to ignore this fact, nor am I about to admit that we Catholics were wrong on so serious a matter.

Of course you're not "about to admit it," else your faith would probably crumble.

It's a tough spot you're in, a spot that will only get tougher as time goes by. I don't envy your position.

It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:
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