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(07-13-2012, 02:51 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:44 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:38 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:36 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Also, Vetus, there are very real implications in the realm of historiography for the way we look at state enforcement of Catholicism. When I discuss politics with my friends, I often support religious liberty, but with a caveat. I explain that I support a Catholic society (and state) as the ideal. I also then note that I'm not about to condemn centuries of my coreligionists--including hundreds of saints and popes--who engaged in religious persecution. Such policies are clearly not good for American society today, but I'm not going to say they were wrong then.

As I said before, I understand and sympathise where you're coming from.

But if and when you think about these issues more deeply, you'll hopefully realise the conundrum you're in just because you want to be intellectually faithful to a Church and a weltanschauung that only exists in history books and old theology manuals.

No, I want to be intellectually faithful to my Church--a real, historical community which at times has delegated to the state authority to enforce its teachings. I'm not about to ignore this fact, nor am I about to admit that we Catholics were wrong on so serious a matter.

Of course you're not "about to admit it," else your faith would probably crumble.

It's a tough spot you're in, a spot that will only get tougher as time goes by. I don't envy your position.
May I ask what position have you adopted "accepted" Vetus?
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I have.

Perhaps you should also think about a point I made earlier, namely, that if the state may lawfully take life for the sake of the common good, why (according to you) may it not lawfully use lower degrees of physical violence--here, specifically torture--to achieve the same end?

Also, how was divinely sanctioned violence in the Old Testament better than ecclesiastically sanctioned violence against heretics?

And, finally, if we are assuming an entirely different society, why should we assume that our current personal condition--including the religious convictions of our family and friends--would remain the same?
(07-13-2012, 03:00 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!

I thought you were one keen for mature discussion.
(07-13-2012, 03:04 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:00 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!

I thought you were one keen for mature discussion.
Vetus, you are lost.
What a shame.
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

No point was made when people like you defend the actions of the Israelites in the promised land yet refuse to accept New Covenant ecclesiastical authority to render same judgement on unbelievers in occupied lands who do worse then those pagans in the promised land.
(07-13-2012, 03:02 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you should also think about a point I made earlier, namely, that if the state may lawfully take life for the sake of the common good, why (according to you) may it not lawfully use lower degrees of physical violence--here, specifically torture--to achieve the same end?

Because the state cannot force anyone to believe against one's conscience. Think about that for once.

Quote:Also, how was divinely sanctioned violence in the Old Testament better than ecclesiastically sanctioned violence against heretics?

Here you must go back to basics and understand the difference between law and gospel. In the Old Testament there was death penalty for a lot of things, including kids that disrespected parents. Do you wish to enforce that? Or do you wish to get serious about your faith and understand God's purpose for these dispensations?

Quote:And, finally, if we are assuming an entirely different society, why should we assume that our current personal condition--including the religious convictions of our family and friends--would remain the same?

This is just a cop-out. You don't really want to face reality: that in a Catholic state many of your friends and family would be heretics liable to be burned at the stake. I undertstand your fear and reluctance to look at such scenario but if you're going to be intellectually honest about it, you must.
(07-13-2012, 03:04 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:00 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!

I thought you were one keen for mature discussion.

Mature theologians, such as Aquinas, argued in favour of the death penalty for heretics.
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