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(07-13-2012, 03:08 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:04 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:00 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!

I thought you were one keen for mature discussion.

Mature theologians, such as Aquinas, argued in favour of the death penalty for heretics.

Jean Calvin agreed.
(07-13-2012, 03:10 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:08 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:04 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:00 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:58 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:56 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 02:53 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]It's too bad I'm so dull I can't even feel the cognitive dissonance which the omniscient Vetus knows I must be experiencing.  :eyeroll:

Another cop-out worthy of a Catholic Answers apologist.

It's no good to keep insisting on this now. The point was already made. Think about it.

I now realize how much of a danger you are to Catholics on this forum. You try to disguise heresy with rhetoric, but I can still see it, and I will not let you get away with it.

Of course you won't.

Light the faggot while there's still time, Philly!

I thought you were one keen for mature discussion.

Mature theologians, such as Aquinas, argued in favour of the death penalty for heretics.

Jean Calvin agreed.

Sure he did.

But, then again, we're not discussing the merits and demerits of Reformed theology, are we?
No, we are not. The point is that even notorious heretics advocated the death penalty for heretics. The same can be said of a religious liberty, which was unthinkable before the 18th century, or birth control.
(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(07-13-2012, 03:02 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps you should also think about a point I made earlier, namely, that if the state may lawfully take life for the sake of the common good, why (according to you) may it not lawfully use lower degrees of physical violence--here, specifically torture--to achieve the same end?

Because the state cannot force anyone to believe against one's conscience. Think about that for once.

The state certainly can and does in many cases force its people to change their beliefs. This is sometimes done in invasive ways and other times in evasive ways, but it is done nonetheless. Take a look at the last sixty years, in which the United States government--through a combination of policies--has stigmatized racism and made it almost unthinkable for anyone in the public eye to retain his dignity while maintaining racism. At lest in some minute form, this was, if not forcing, at least encouraging its citizens to believe against their consciences.

Similarly, most states have laws--which I assume you consider legitimate--against slander and inciting immediate violence through speech. This can force citizens to act against their consciences if their consciences command them to propagate their version of the truth or start a revolution. I'm not sure how heresy laws are much different. Citizens who expresses certain kinds of ideas will be punished because those ideas are (viewed as) harmful to the common good. This is within the legitimate sphere of state power.

(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Also, how was divinely sanctioned violence in the Old Testament better than ecclesiastically sanctioned violence against heretics?
Here you must go back to basics and understand the difference between law and gospel. In the Old Testament there was death penalty for a lot of things, including kids that disrespected parents. Do you wish to enforce that? Or do you wish to get serious about your faith and understand God's purpose for these dispensations?

I don't necessarily want to enforce it, but the same God who gave the Sermon on the Mount gave the Law on Sinai. I'm not about to admit that anything in divine positive law was intrinsically immoral. If it's conducive to the common good (which it may have been in some historical and may well be in some future society), then I wouldn't oppose it.

(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:And, finally, if we are assuming an entirely different society, why should we assume that our current personal condition--including the religious convictions of our family and friends--would remain the same?

This is just a cop-out. You don't really want to face reality: that in a Catholic state many of your friends and family would be heretics liable to be burned at the stake. I undertstand your fear and reluctance to look at such scenario but if you're going to be intellectually honest about it, you must.

It's not a copout. Most of us are discussing enforcement of religious orthodoxy in the context of an already Catholic culture.

Furthermore, in painting the hyperbolic image of my cousin or sister burning in agony before me, you haven't considered the alternatives. Maybe just economic coercion would work: punish heretics with a monetary penalty or tax (what's the difference?). Perhaps a bit of jail time would be fine. If, somehow, I ended up with a bunch of non-Catholic friends and relatives in the middle of a staunchly Catholic society, I'd probably be okay with their being taxed higher, or with one of them's having to serve a year or two.

(07-13-2012, 03:28 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]Furthermore, in painting the hyperbolic image of my cousin or sister burning in agony before me, you haven't considered the alternatives. Maybe just economic coercion would work: punish heretics with a monetary penalty or tax (what's the difference?). Perhaps a bit of jail time would be fine. If, somehow, I ended up with a bunch of non-Catholic friends and relatives in the middle of a staunchly Catholic society, I'd probably be okay with their being taxed higher, or with one of them's having to serve a year or two.
Reminds me of Spain When Francisco Franco was in charge.

I like it.

(07-13-2012, 03:28 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: [ -> ]The state certainly can and does in many cases force its people to change their beliefs.

Tryrannical states, yes.

Quote:I don't necessarily want to enforce it, but the same God who gave the Sermon on the Mount gave the Law on Sinai. I'm not about to admit that anything in divine positive law was intrinsically immoral. If it's conducive to the common good (which it may have been in some historical and may well be in some future society), then I wouldn't oppose it.

You "don't necessarily want to enforce it" which actually means you really don't want to enforce it. Nor do you want to stone adulterers to death, I assume.

Through the harsh Mosaic Law came the knowlege of sin, as St. Paul teaches. And the punishment of sin is death. In other words, for every sin a man commits, the just punishment would be immediate death. In Christ, however, we have an unfailing advocate before the Father, and through His sacrifice on the cross we can have forgiveness of sins. Christian liberty, which we are under, is not the same thing as being under the bondage of the Law. Whereas before most sins were a matter of civil law, now they aren't.

Quote:It's not a copout. Most of us are discussing enforcement of religious orthodoxy in the context of an already Catholic culture.

Furthermore, in painting the hyperbolic image of my cousin or sister burning in agony before me, you haven't considered the alternatives. Maybe just economic coercion would work: punish heretics with a monetary penalty or tax (what's the difference?). Perhaps a bit of jail time would be fine. If, somehow, I ended up with a bunch of non-Catholic friends and relatives in the middle of a staunchly Catholic society, I'd probably be okay with their being taxed higher, or with one of them's having to serve a year or two.

So, fines and jail time are okay with you. Anything but burning them alive, as the pious forefathers in the faith did for centuries without end.
From phone

Vets u say that with the new covenant the punishment of death for sin is no longer in effect.  You are correct but u would ddo good to remember that sin is stilll worthy of it.  Just because it ismt that way anymore doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be just to enforce such a penalty

Second u are hyperbolizing the methods of the inquisition a bit in thw way you say all or most our friends would be burned.  First because a person who privately held a heretical view wouldn't be subject to lunishment since no one would know abour iy.  Second it wasn't as simple as finding all the hererics and burning them.  Geretics were expected abd the chrch was wont to have them profess the true faith

The inquisition dealt with obstinate and formal heresy.  In a culture where people mostly lnew what it meant and what it took to be catholic
 
Todays catholics that believe heresy do it in large part through ignirance
(06-25-2012, 04:47 AM)Sondaar Wrote: [ -> ]Here is something I found quite useful;



It was made by the BBC (which isn't catholic, so it can't be accused of bias) - It's divided into 5 parts.

Torture if I remember correctly was used by everyone, it was just a device of the day and age (like questioning or interrogation is today) -- one cannot judge something in the past against the moral values of today...though watch it, it destroys the Inquisition myth.

I watched this on A&E.  It's surprisingly a fair account of the Inquisition.  The Inquisition myth mostly comes from Protestant propaganda.

I see nobody has posted this SSPX page on the Defense of the Inquisition yet.
http://www.sspx.org/against_sound_bites/...sition.htm

Then there's this pair of videos with the Franciscan Friar Fra Joseph Mary.

No Apologies #114: The Spanish Inquisition In Context


No Apologies #115: Myths of the Spanish Inquisition
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