FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Torture in the Inquisition
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
(06-25-2012, 11:55 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 11:33 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you can explain it a little more, but if it was right back then, then it must be right today, as the very nature of it being right excludes the possibility of it being wrong, and vice a versa.

Why do you say must? As has been stated on this forum before, the method of dealing with heretics for the Apostles and early Church Fathers was to excommunicate, to let them be anathema.. and to shake the dust from their sandals. I understand that the medieval church wanted to keep Europe Catholic and that heresy was regarded by the State as a kind of treason.  But the principles of the Gospel haven't changed, that I'm aware of.

Perhaps from "throw them out of the Church and leave them be" to "torture and burn them alive!" was just an accidental development?
(06-25-2012, 11:54 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]That's not the point.

The point is that the Church and the Pope, enlightened by the gospel, sanctioned it. Hiding behind historical circumstances and civil justice is a cop-out.

What's your opinion on hanging a milestone round the necks of child abusers and having them cast into the ocean? Guess who sanctioned that?
Surely these people need confession, the sacraments and loving understanding and maybe some cookies and milk?.

Some crimes deserve physical punishment...nuff said.
(06-25-2012, 11:18 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 04:47 AM)Sondaar Wrote: [ -> ]Torture if I remember correctly was used by everyone, it was just a device of the day and age (like questioning or interrogation is today) -- one cannot judge something in the past against the moral values of today...

Wait, I thought moral values were timeless.

If torture is wrong today, it was also wrong yesterday.
Ai Vetus, you know what I meant ...What i mean is societal morals --- Women were not always treated like they are today, nor was slavery always considered wrong...it was common practice of the time.

Torture was something people saw back then as part of the legal process -- in fact, If I recall that BBC documentary correctly, a confession was invalid is it wasn't made under torture ...that just they way people saw things.

Kings back then saw heresy and apostasy as the same as treason, I mean if you don't respect and obey God you'll definitely not obey and respect them.
(06-25-2012, 12:00 PM)Sondaar Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 11:18 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 04:47 AM)Sondaar Wrote: [ -> ]Torture if I remember correctly was used by everyone, it was just a device of the day and age (like questioning or interrogation is today) -- one cannot judge something in the past against the moral values of today...

Wait, I thought moral values were timeless.

If torture is wrong today, it was also wrong yesterday.
Ai Vetus, you know what I meant ...What i mean is societal morals --- Women were not always treated like they are today, nor was slavery always considered wrong...it was common practice of the time.

Torture was something people saw back then as part of the legal process -- in fact, If I recall that BBC documentary correctly, a confession was invalid is it wasn't made under torture ...that just they way people saw things.

Kings back then saw heresy and apostasy as the same as treason, I mean if you don't respect and obey God you'll definitely not obey and respect them.

And guess who is responsible to be a light unto the world, to change wrong social mores instead of accepting them, etc.? Yes, the Church.
(06-25-2012, 11:59 AM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 11:54 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]That's not the point.

The point is that the Church and the Pope, enlightened by the gospel, sanctioned it. Hiding behind historical circumstances and civil justice is a cop-out.

What's your opinion on hanging a milestone round the necks of child abusers and having them cast into the ocean? Guess who sanctioned that?
Surely these people need confession, the sacraments and loving understanding and maybe some cookies and milk?.

Some crimes deserve physical punishment...nuff said.

Jesus said "it would be better if....." a millstone were hung about the neck.. and "it would be better if" a man like Judas had never been born. That doesn''t mean he was advocating abortion, or capital punishment. He was using hyperbole.
(06-25-2012, 12:03 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]And guess who is responsible to be a light unto the world, to change wrong social mores instead of accepting them, etc.? Yes, the Church.

So the institution of the Church is more enlightened then Christ? ...interesting premise.
(06-25-2012, 12:03 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]And guess who is responsible to be a light unto the world, to change wrong social mores instead of accepting them, etc.? Yes, the Church.

Right on, Vetus.
(06-25-2012, 11:55 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 11:33 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you can explain it a little more, but if it was right back then, then it must be right today, as the very nature of it being right excludes the possibility of it being wrong, and vice a versa.

Why do you say must? As has been stated on this forum before, the method of dealing with heretics for the Apostles and early Church Fathers was to excommunicate, to let them be anathema.. and to shake the dust from their sandals. I understand that the medieval church wanted to keep Europe Catholic and that heresy was regarded by the State as a kind of treason.  But the principles of the Gospel haven't changed, that I'm aware of.

Because that's the nature of something that is right.  That's what moral objectivism is.  IF something is right, then it is right regardless of the time or culture it is subjected to.  

Something that's right can't be also wrong anymore than you can simultaneously turn left and right.  One cancels the other out.
(06-25-2012, 11:18 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Wait, I thought moral values were timeless.

If torture is wrong today, it was also wrong yesterday.

Other nations look at the US justice system and think it is barbaric, just like people look back on the historical justice systems and think they are deficient. The point is that the Inquisitions used the judicial methods common to the culture. It is not like any form of torture was made up by the Inquisition any more than the Swiss Guard invented electronic monitoring today.

Judging the Inquisition must take into account facts, and the fact is it was usually a superior judicial system than what would have otherwise existed in that same time and place.

Inquisitions varied in their procedures, but it was only there to determine heresy. It did not carry out sentences or perform other functions. That was done by the local system.

The protestants and other enemies of the Church made up stories about them to make them more than they were including inventing stories about them. To give them the same weight the modern culture does is to deny reality, including the complexity of individual Inquisitions and the procedures of them.

(06-25-2012, 11:39 AM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 11:33 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe you can explain it a little more, but if it was right back then, then it must be right today, as the very nature of it being right excludes the possibility of it being wrong, and vice a versa.
The way in which one reacts to an issue of morality (to torture or not to torture) has no bearing on the original point of morality.The value judgement however,interms of how one deals with moral issues is another aspect to civil society separate from the moral question. Of course,some actions can always be described as morally reprehensible yet this seems to be an issue of civil development historically.

Also Inquisitorial torture was very mild by the standards of the day.

I thought we were judging the rightness or wrongness of the action.  We can't be told that by the culture.  "Moral values" as you put it really have no ultimate bearing on actually judging an act to be evil.  And that's more what I was interested in.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14