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(06-25-2012, 12:23 PM)Sondaar Wrote: [ -> ]I don't understand what people find so offensive -- I'm not condoning torture, I'm explaining people had a peculiar idea that the only way to know if a person was telling the truth without any doubt was under torture (just as they thought lobotomies help head aches and mental illness) -- it was the flawed understanding of the day.

We today know is complete nonsense -- but they didn't. It is unfair to judge them by our more informed positions.

FYI only 2% of people ever arrested by the Inquisition were ever tortured -- only like 2000 were executed over 50-60 years.

Now, that's sounds bad...but the conventional courts sentenced way more people to death and conditions in their prisons were so bad that people actually blasphemed so as to be moved to the Inquisitorial cells (that and they actually had a legal counsel in the Inquisitorial courts, which they didn't have in the civil courts)

By the standards of the day it really wasn't that bad.

The point is that the Church is enlightened by the truths of the gospel and the aid of the Holy Ghost. If torturing people in order to make them confess is intrinsically wrong, then the Church was wrong in condoning such practices. If burning people alive as form of social thought control is instrinsically wrong, then the Church was wrong in condoning such practices. It's that simple. Simply appealing to the morals of the times to excuse the Church is a cop-out.
(06-25-2012, 12:36 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:34 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, because accepting that the Church erred in the past makes you a hippie.

JP2 much?

Grow up.
(06-25-2012, 12:28 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]Where you see abuse others see self-mastery. Do orders of men and women not flagellate and wear hair-shirts and other instruments of physical suffering? Did not St Pio refuse to heal the sight of certain men because they would sin with their eyes?  What is fasting then if not self abuse by this measure?

I am not going to judge (HA! as if!) the motives of these good saints. But I do not agree with flagellation, hair shirts and other instruments of torture. I do agree with fasting because Our Lord did so in the desert. But I don't think Jesus or the Apostles would have whipped themselves or starved themselves to death. Yes, they praised God when they were imprisoned and flogged because they were "found worthy to suffer for the sake of the name." But this is not the same as self-infliction.

St. Catherine of Sienna died of anorexia. St. Francis, St. Clare and so many others, died premature deaths because of abusing their bodies. I am sure that they felt they were being closer to Christ by suffering. But there are many, many other saints who did not abuse themselves who are just as holy. Just my two cents.
I think the issue here is the use of the same procedures for heresy as other crimes. Look on this forum about what people say about child molesters, murders, abortion mills, and other evil acts. The use of force to prevent, capture, and punish these criminals is widely supported.

How much more important is it to stop those who would lead others astray from the truth? People are easily swayed by convincing and charismatic words, even false and illogical ones. Inquisitions used local civil authority for most of the cases, and therefore, the methods of those civil authorities.
(06-25-2012, 12:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Grow up.

How does this quote gel with your new found levels of spiritual enlightenment? Surely you are beyond this up there on your tower of Ivory?  :

 
(06-11-2012, 08:44 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]He did well.

Rapists should be put to death.

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg33751327
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]. I do agree with fasting because Our Lord did so in the desert.

Oh the Irony is thick.  Here's a  question...who was it that allowed himself to be tortured,to have torture used as the instrument by which all men would be saved and the price paid for their sins?
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]St. Catherine of Sienna died of anorexia. St. Francis, St. Clare and so many others, died premature deaths because of abusing their bodies. I am sure that they felt they were being closer to Christ by suffering. But there are many, many other saints who did not abuse themselves who are just as holy. Just my two cents.

Or maybe they were not abusing their bodies and it just seemed so to others.

To attribute claims of holiness to mental disorder and mistake may not be prudent.

(06-25-2012, 12:42 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]I think the issue here is the use of the same procedures for heresy as other crimes. Look on this forum about what people say about child molesters, murders, abortion mills, and other evil acts. The use of force to prevent, capture, and punish these criminals is widely supported.

How much more important is it to stop those who would lead others astray from the truth? People are easily swayed by convincing and charismatic words, even false and illogical ones. Inquisitions used local civil authority for most of the cases, and therefore, the methods of those civil authorities.

Exactly.Well said sir.
(06-25-2012, 01:02 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]St. Catherine of Sienna died of anorexia. St. Francis, St. Clare and so many others, died premature deaths because of abusing their bodies. I am sure that they felt they were being closer to Christ by suffering. But there are many, many other saints who did not abuse themselves who are just as holy. Just my two cents.

Or maybe they were not abusing their bodies and it just seemed so to others.

To attribute claims of holiness to mental disorder and mistake may not be prudent.

St Gemma died young because she traded years of life for the souls of strangers. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his brother
(06-25-2012, 12:57 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]Grow up.

How does quote gel with your new found levels of spiritual enlightenment?  :

(06-11-2012, 08:44 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]He did well.

Rapists should be put to death.

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg33751327

I never claimed to be against capital punishment so your attempt at being witty is misdirected. What I claim is that torturing and burning people alive in order to enforce thought control is tryannical and that the Church unfortunately condoned it for centuries. Recognising such facts doesn't make one a "hippie" unless you happen to live in that trad fantasy world called "candyland" where you're fighting for the restoration of Christendom on your Sunday mornings and late night internet ramblings.

But let's put money where your mouth is: you would willingfully have your family and friends tortured for blasphemy and heresy, if they happened to profess it, wouldn't you? You'd denounce them to the authorites as the good Catholic that you are. I would assume that you live by that which you pontificate.
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