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(06-25-2012, 01:06 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I never claimed to be against capital punishment so your attempt at being witty is misdirected. What I claim is that torturing and burning people alive in order to enforce thought control is tryannical and that the Church unfortunately condoned it for centuries. Recognising such facts doesn't make one a "hippie" unless you happen to live in that trad fantasy world called "candyland" where you're fighting for the restoration of Christendom on your Sunday mornings and late night internet ramblings.
That is ignoring reality of the Inquisitions.

Quote:But let's put money where your mouth is: you would willingfully have your family and friends tortured for blasphemy and heresy, if they happened to profess it, wouldn't you? You'd denounce them to the authorites as the good Catholic that you are. I would assume that you live by that which you pontificate.
I'd denounce you pretty quickly. I think you are potentially gravely harmful to others in what you write. People read this forum to seek information and you are doing great harm in advocating errors.

For family, you do realise this is not a logical statement. What does that have to do with anything? I was in court (working) and I saw a girlfriend of a man pleading before a judge for leniency for a man accused (and convicted) of raping two teenage girls by force. I highly doubt this woman would have done this for every rapist. Her personal connection to him changed her. It was not logical, but based on strong emotion. What does this prove that people have emotions?

You have forsaken reason. Do you expect people to say "well, I am not perfect therefore, it is hopeless"? Nonsense.

You should be banned from posting on this forum for the good of the souls of others who may not be able to distinguish truth from falsehood.

(06-25-2012, 01:06 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I never claimed to be against capital punishment so your attempt at being witty is misdirected. What I claim is that torturing and burning people alive in order to enforce thought control is tryannical

You see...this is a straw man argument because no one was ever burned (all executions were the privy of state jurisdiction btw) for the purposes of mind control and in fact burning was a very very rare event indeed in relation to matters of the defense of the faith and realm.What we have here is a cunning use of language to support a fallacious position.

I do find it interesting that you hold the capital punishment of sins against the body to a higher order of physical justice than sins or attacks on the Faith and the society emboldened by such Faith.
(06-25-2012, 01:06 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]But let's put money where your mouth is: you would willingfully have your family and friends tortured for blasphemy and heresy, if they happened to profess it, wouldn't you? You'd denounce them to the authorites as the good Catholic that you are. I would assume that you live by that which you pontificate.

No,but then that's not what we are discussing here.Back in the day this was the accepted way.The society of the day took these issues very seriously.They were not the actions of mad,blood lustful maniacs.
I'm saying to judge this from the Ivory Tower of historical and civil development,indeed to apologize  for it is foolish and stupid and pointless.

Here's another scenario for you. My infant daughter gets kidnapped by evil men who want to make the worst kind of movies.I track one of these animals down and he refuses to talk.You can take it to the bank that I would hammering nails into his eye-balls and pouring acid up his poop chute to get my child back.
(06-25-2012, 01:00 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]. I do agree with fasting because Our Lord did so in the desert.

Oh the Irony is thick.  Here's a  question...who was it that allowed himself to be tortured,to have torture used as the instrument by which all men would be saved and the price paid for their sins?

Jesus said, "Let this cup pass from me..." But he chose the Father's will over his own: "Not MY will, but thine be done.". I don't pretend to understand why God chose to save us in this way. It's over my head, always has been and always will be. But I do know that it shows the depth of his love. If I had to I would die for my children or grandchildren. So I understand that part of it.
(06-25-2012, 01:12 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]I'd denounce you pretty quickly.

I'm sure you would.

Quote:You should be banned from posting on this forum for the good of the souls of others who may not be able to distinguish truth from falsehood.

I'm sure you do a good job of distinguishing it for them.
(06-25-2012, 01:21 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sure you do a good job of distinguishing it for them.

I should not have to counter wolves on this forum. Correcting mistakes and supply information while also obtaining information and being corrected when appropriate are why I am here. I am not here to provide a balance to heretics.

(06-25-2012, 01:02 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]St. Catherine of Sienna died of anorexia. St. Francis, St. Clare and so many others, died premature deaths because of abusing their bodies. I am sure that they felt they were being closer to Christ by suffering. But there are many, many other saints who did not abuse themselves who are just as holy. Just my two cents.

Or maybe they were not abusing their bodies and it just seemed so to others.

To attribute claims of holiness to mental disorder and mistake may not be prudent.

I did not say they were mentally disordered. I am saying they probably believed that physical suffering made them closer to Christ. There is nothing wrong with wanting to imitate Christ in his sufferings. The martrys did when they were given a choice to deny Christ and live, or keep the faith and die. Still, that is NOT the same as self-imposed torture.
(06-25-2012, 01:27 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 01:02 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 12:41 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]St. Catherine of Sienna died of anorexia. St. Francis, St. Clare and so many others, died premature deaths because of abusing their bodies. I am sure that they felt they were being closer to Christ by suffering. But there are many, many other saints who did not abuse themselves who are just as holy. Just my two cents.

Or maybe they were not abusing their bodies and it just seemed so to others.

To attribute claims of holiness to mental disorder and mistake may not be prudent.

I did not say they were mentally disordered. I am saying they probably believed that physical suffering made them closer to Christ. There is nothing wrong with wanting to imitate Christ in his sufferings. The martrys did when they were given a choice to deny Christ and live, or keep the faith and die. Still, that is NOT the same as self-imposed torture.

You claimed that they died because they abused their bodies. That indicates a disorder of medical or psychological nature. To fast is not the same thing as loss of appetite (anorexia). There is no merit in having a medical condition, but there is in accepting the suffering.
(06-25-2012, 01:14 PM)Habitual_Ritual Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-25-2012, 01:06 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]I never claimed to be against capital punishment so your attempt at being witty is misdirected. What I claim is that torturing and burning people alive in order to enforce thought control is tryannical

You see...this is a straw man argument because no one was ever burned (all executions were the privy of state jurisdiction btw) for the purposes of mind control and in fact burning was a very very rare event indeed in relation to matters of the defense of the faith and realm.What we have here is a cunning use of language to support a fallacious position.

1. The purpose of the inquisitions was never stated as "mind control" but in reality it translated as such. If all people in a given society have to profess Roman Catholicism or die as vile criminals that's simply mind control. It makes a mockery of faith being an inner conviction of the mind and soul.

2. While numbers have been exaggerated by some authors, to say that burnings were a very rare event is simply to ignore history. And having recourse to the subtle cavil that they occured under the jurisdiction of the state is also disingenuous, as if the Church, powerful as she was back then, couldn't have violently protested against such proceedings if she were against them. I live in a country that executed religious dissenters up until the 19th century. Burning people alive because they dissent from the teachings of Rome is not "defending the faith," it's a repugnant act of tyranny and ignorance.

Quote:I do find it interesting that you hold the capital punishment of sins against the body to a higher order of physical justice than sins or attacks on the Faith and the society emboldened by such Faith.

You can't force anyone to believe. To do so is the characteristic of tyrants and cult leaders. Liberty of conscience is a precious thing that shouldn't be taken for granted.
(06-25-2012, 01:32 PM)Rosarium Wrote: [ -> ]You claimed that they died because they abused their bodies . That indicates a disorder of medical or psychological nature. To fast is not the same thing as loss of appetite (anorexia). There is no merit in having a medical condition, but there is in accepting the suffering.

That they died because of their weakened condition is a FACT. They could have died officially of other things, but the wear-and-tear on their bodies after years of abusing it, hastened death. For St. Francis, the stigmata hastened death. St. Clare from excessive fasting. St. Catherine had holy anorexia.. not to be confused with today's which is about low self-image. But the results are the same. Total loss of appetite. St. Catherine had no appetite at all and could only swallow Holy Communion.

You are right in saying there is no merit in having a medical condition, but neither is it a hindrance to grace and holiness. God can work wonders through any holy soul, despite their illnesses, physical or mental. In fact, St. Joseph Benedict Labre was mentally ill.
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