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How is the current practice of allowing girls to serve at the altar permitted in light of the following passage?
Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755 Wrote:Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.

In contrast, the majority of dioceses in the world, including papal liturgies, employ the use of altar girls. What gives?
Girls haven't become women yet, therefore they are not specifically alluded to in that text. 

What?  Isn't hoop-jumping allowed?
(08-08-2012, 01:34 AM)The Curt Jester Wrote: [ -> ]Girls haven't become women yet, therefore they are not specifically alluded to in that text. 

What?  Isn't hoop-jumping allowed?

Splitting hairs aren't we? The text makes a gender reference, it's more logical to assume that the text is targeting the genus of women and not just the particular species of older females. If we take your approach, you're going to have to define at what age does a female cease to become a girl and begins as a woman.
NewChurch, brah.

You gotta see what was written at the New Pentecost, I mean the Second Vatican Council, and interpret from there.

No quoting of these long dead old white popes from the past!
(08-08-2012, 01:41 AM)TS Aquinas Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2012, 01:34 AM)The Curt Jester Wrote: [ -> ]Girls haven't become women yet, therefore they are not specifically alluded to in that text. 

What?  Isn't hoop-jumping allowed?

Splitting hairs aren't we? The text makes a gender reference, it's more logical to assume that the text is targeting the genus of women and not just the particular species of older females. If we take your approach, you're going to have to define at what age does a female cease to become a girl and begins as a woman.

Please tell me you weren't taking me seriously.  Please.  PLEASE!
(08-08-2012, 01:34 AM)The Curt Jester Wrote: [ -> ]Girls haven't become women yet, therefore they are not specifically alluded to in that text. 

What?  Isn't hoop-jumping allowed?

That's probably one of the reasons used. The sad thing is that I'm serious.

This picture appears to show an altar woman acolyte:

[Image: 384_FemaleAccolite01.jpg]

EWTN tries to justify this change, saying:
Quote:It is important to make some theological distinctions, too. This is not a matter of faith but of Church discipline. While having boys serve at the altar is a long-standing ecclesiastical tradition it is nonetheless a human institution, NOT divine, and therefore capable of change for sufficient reason. The judgment about what is sufficient rests with the Holy See.

However, Pope Pius VI, in condemning the Pseudo-Synod of Pistoia, said:
Quote:The prescription of the synod about the order of transacting business in the conferences, in which, after it prefaced "in every article that which pertains to faith and to the essence of religion must be distinuished from that which is proper to discipline," it adds, "in this itself (discipline) there is to be distinguished what is necessary or useful to retain the faithful in spirit, from that which is useless or too burdensome for the liberty of the sons of the new Covenant to endure, but more so, from that which is dangerous or harmful, namely, leading to superstitution and materialism"; in so far as by the generality of the words it includes and submits to a prescribed examination even the discipline established and approved by the Church, as if the Church which is ruled by the Spirit of God could have established discipline which is not only useless and burdensome for Christian liberty to endure, but which is even dangerous and harmful and leading to superstition and materialism,--false, rash, scandalous, dangerous, offensive to pious ears, injurious to the Church and to the Spirit of God by whom it is guided, at least erroneous.

Source: Denzinger 1578. Emphasis mine.

The Catholic Encyclopedia's article on Ecclesiastical Discipline says:
Quote:The authors of these treatises decide unanimously in favour of a negative and indirect rather than a positive and direct infallibility, inasmuch as in her general discipline, i. e. the common laws imposed on all the faithful, the Church can prescribe nothing that would be contrary to the natural or the Divine law, nor prohibit anything that the natural or the Divine law would exact. If well understood this thesis is undeniable; it amounts to saying that the Church does not and cannot impose practical directions contradictory of her own teaching.

Emphasis again mine.

All of these quotes are in line with what Pope Gelasius said.

Another prospective "loop jump" I can see is that altar girls isn't a universal discipline. I do not now if this is the case.
(08-08-2012, 01:43 AM)The Curt Jester Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2012, 01:41 AM)TS Aquinas Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-08-2012, 01:34 AM)The Curt Jester Wrote: [ -> ]Girls haven't become women yet, therefore they are not specifically alluded to in that text. 

What?  Isn't hoop-jumping allowed?

Splitting hairs aren't we? The text makes a gender reference, it's more logical to assume that the text is targeting the genus of women and not just the particular species of older females. If we take your approach, you're going to have to define at what age does a female cease to become a girl and begins as a woman.

Please tell me you weren't taking me seriously.  Please.  PLEASE!

It's becoming increasingly difficult to detect sarcasm in this forum  :crazy:
(08-08-2012, 01:30 AM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: [ -> ]How is the current practice of allowing girls to serve at the altar permitted in light of the following passage?
Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt, July 26, 1755 Wrote:Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.

In contrast, the majority of dioceses in the world, including papal liturgies, employ the use of altar girls. What gives?

The answer is that Bl. John Paul II permitted girls to serve at the altar, and that's apparently that.  An unfortunately neglected topic is the way the an Enlightenment-style legal positivism has invaded the Church, and it predates Vatican II by decades.  The clearest example is the creation of the 1917 Codex Iuris Canonici, which swept away the centuries-old precedent-based Corpus Iuris Canonici, though even that isn't the earliest example that could be adduced.  By now, this positivism is firmly entrenched and I'm not sure it can be dislodged.  This near-deification of Law is what makes it so easy to sweep away Tradition - the ancient ordo psallendi of the Roman Church can be swept away simply because St. Pius X says so in 1911.  The Vulgate Psalter can be replaced by a fresh composition in 1945 because Ven, Pius XII says so.  The breviary can be modified again in 1956 because Ven. Pius XII says so.  It can be extensively changed again four years later because Bl. John XXIII said so.  The entire Roman Rite can be (effectively) replaced because Paul VI says so.  The 1917 Code can be entirely replaced because Bl. John Paul II says so.  Wait a second, we can now say that the traditional Roman Rite actually wasn't replaced because now H. H. Benedict XVI says so.  And on and on and on...
(08-08-2012, 01:52 AM)aquinas138 Wrote: [ -> ]The answer is that Bl. John Paul II permitted girls to serve at the altar, and that's apparently that.  An unfortunately neglected topic is the way the an Enlightenment-style legal positivism has invaded the Church, and it predates Vatican II by decades.  The clearest example is the creation of the 1917 Codex Iuris Canonici, which swept away the centuries-old precedent-based Corpus Iuris Canonici, though even that isn't the earliest example that could be adduced.  By now, this positivism is firmly entrenched and I'm not sure it can be dislodged.  This near-deification of Law is what makes it so easy to sweep away Tradition - the ancient ordo psallendi of the Roman Church can be swept away simply because St. Pius X says so in 1911.  The Vulgate Psalter can be replaced by a fresh composition in 1945 because Ven, Pius XII says so.  The breviary can be modified again in 1956 because Ven. Pius XII says so.  It can be extensively changed again four years later because Bl. John XXIII said so.  The entire Roman Rite can be (effectively) replaced because Paul VI says so.  The 1917 Code can be entirely replaced because Bl. John Paul II says so.  Wait a second, we can now say that the traditional Roman Rite actually wasn't replaced because now H. H. Benedict XVI says so.  And on and on and on...

The arguments against the new breviary and Pian psalter can be made, and I've heard them myself. However, the specific point of this thread is not whether or not the Holy See and the Church can change the liturgy and discipline, but whether or not they can allow that which was previously forbidden and condemned as evil. I don't think anyone on this message board would laud praise upon this novelty.
(08-08-2012, 01:42 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: [ -> ]NewChurch, brah.

You gotta see what was written at the New Pentecost, I mean the Second Vatican Council, and interpret from there.

No quoting of these long dead old white popes from the past!

LOL. This!
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