FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: For all the NOers here: Jesus in on the floor
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
What HR said.
(08-18-2012, 06:11 PM)Christknight104 Wrote: [ -> ]Why must the hosts at the Novus Ordo be so large anyway?

It represents a theological shift from the Real Presence to the spiritual presence of Christ among the visible assembly of the "people of God": the larger the host, the larger the communion.

This fits with the new definition of the Mass as it was originally promulgated in 1969:
General Instruction of the Roman Missal, no. 7, 1969 Wrote:“The Lord’s Supper is the assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason the promise of Christ is particularly true of a local congregation of the Church: ‘Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.’"

Compare that with the solemn definition given to us by the Holy Ghost through the Council of Trent:
Council of Trent, Doctrina de ss. Missae sacrificio, c. 2 Wrote:"And forasmuch as, in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass, that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner, who once offered Himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross; the holy Synod teaches, that this sacrifice is truly propitiatory and that by means thereof this is effected, that we obtain mercy, and find grace in seasonable aid, if we draw nigh unto God, contrite and penitent, with a sincere heart and upright faith, with fear and reverence. For the Lord, appeased by the oblation thereof, and granting the grace and gift of penitence, forgives even heinous crimes and sins. For the victim is one and the same, the same now offering by the ministry of priests, who then offered Himself on the cross, the manner alone of offering being different. The fruits indeed of which oblation, of that bloody one to wit, are received most plentifully through this unbloody one; so far is this (latter) from derogating in any way from that (former oblation). Wherefore, not only for the sins, punishments, satisfactions, and other necessities of the faithful who are living, but also for those who are departed in Christ, and who are not as yet fully purified, is it rightly offered, agreebly to a tradition of the apostles."

(NOTE: This is not to say that the Novus Ordo doesn't make a nod to the Real Presence in various places, but it is just one more external shift in theological emphasis that reflected the ideals of Vatican II. They don't outright deny it; they just redirect your attention elsewhere.)
(08-19-2012, 01:46 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 01:23 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 09:30 AM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]When I go to a Novus Ordo Mass, I do inspect my hands for fragments and have never seen any.  Just my experience.
Why would a trad receive in the hand? Even NO you can at least receive on the tongue.


Because I may receive my Lord in my hand, that is why.  Obviously when I go to a TLM, I receive on my tongue.  The important part is that I receive my Lord and Savior.
I may beat my neighbor to a bloody pulp but I don't do so.
CITH is an abuse, no matter how you cut it.
(08-20-2012, 10:21 AM)Old Salt Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 01:46 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 01:23 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 09:30 AM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]When I go to a Novus Ordo Mass, I do inspect my hands for fragments and have never seen any.  Just my experience.
Why would a trad receive in the hand? Even NO you can at least receive on the tongue.


Because I may receive my Lord in my hand, that is why.  Obviously when I go to a TLM, I receive on my tongue.  The important part is that I receive my Lord and Savior.
I may beat my neighbor to a bloody pulp but I don't do so.
CITH is an abuse, no matter how you cut it.
Now now, temper temper.
(08-20-2012, 10:24 AM)Cooler King Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-20-2012, 10:21 AM)Old Salt Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 01:46 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 01:23 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 09:30 AM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]When I go to a Novus Ordo Mass, I do inspect my hands for fragments and have never seen any.  Just my experience.
Why would a trad receive in the hand? Even NO you can at least receive on the tongue.


Because I may receive my Lord in my hand, that is why.  Obviously when I go to a TLM, I receive on my tongue.  The important part is that I receive my Lord and Savior.
I may beat my neighbor to a bloody pulp but I don't do so.
CITH is an abuse, no matter how you cut it.
Now now, temper temper.
My statement has nothing to do with my temperment, but rather to make the point that humans "may" physically do things that are absolutely wrong.

CITH in the USA is illicit.
(08-19-2012, 11:07 PM)Spooky Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 09:39 PM)moneil Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-19-2012, 09:19 PM)Spooky Wrote: [ -> ]What's the percentage of Catholics who believe in the Real Presence? 20%? I'm going to go out on a limb and blame that pathetic number directly on how Holy Communion is treated in the NO, either thru abuses or the inherent de-emphases on the sacrificial aspect.

I don't know where you got your "20%" but it is just plain wrong.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/genreal.jpg

I don't remember where I read it, and it could have been 30% who believe. If 70% do believe He is Really and Truly Present, then why do they treat Him so awful? That seems even worse; not believing would explain their sacrileges and abuses. But to believe Jesus Christ is Present in the Blessed Sacrament and still act that way...SMH

I'm inclined to think that Spooky's 20% is closer to the truth than the percentages quoted by moneil. You always have to take "self-reported" statistics with a huge grain of salt. People will tell the poll-taker what they think he/she wants to hear, or what makes them look good. Same with the self-reported statistics about Mass attendance: "Do you attend Mass every Sunday?" -- yes or no. Somebody who makes it to Mass three times a month is going to say yes, because "no" sounds like they never attend, and that's farther from the truth than saying they always do.

As for the Real Presence, I have a friend (an NO Catholic, and a fairly devout one) who does not believe in it, and is skeptical that anyone does. The way he puts it, if people really believed that Jesus Christ was really present in the tabernacle, they would be beating down the doors of the Church -- you couldn't keep them away. And yet a large percentage of them don't even make it to Mass every Sunday -- and a lot of those who do, don't especially act like they are in the Presence of the Lord. Aside from CITH, how many people leave immediately after Communion, without bothering to stick around for the rest of the Mass, or taking any time to pray or give thanks for what they have just received? How many start shooting the breeze with their neighbors as soon as they leave the pew (or in the Church before Mass begins)? How many show up for Mass in clothes that would be more appropriate at the beach?

Actions speak louder than words. People may say they believe in the Real Presence, but they sure don't act as if they do, and I suspect that deep down, most NO Catholics don't really believe it. For many of them, Sunday Mass is more of a social club than a religious experience. And I don't say this as a stuck-up nose-in-the-air trad who looks down on anything NO. I am an NO Catholic myself, and I think it is possible for the NO Mass to be a religious experience. I'm just not convinced that it is for most people.
Just saw this on Saintsquotes.net

'O marvelous Sacrament! How can I find words to praise you! You are the life of the soul, the medicament healing our wounds, our comforter when we are overburdened, the memorial of Jesus Christ, the proof of his love, the most precious precept of his testament, our companion in the pilgrimage of life, the joy sustaining us in our exile, the burning coal kindling the fire of divine love, the instrument of grace, the pledge of eternal bliss and the treasure of Christians.'

Ven. Louis de Granada

:monstrance:
(08-20-2012, 09:17 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]What HR said.

I'll reply to him (and you) through you because his post is too long to make people have to scroll through again and I've given up trying to delete it as I have other things to do.

I appreciate the information but how am I, or anyone else, to know if it's valid or not?

YOU say it's valid but that is not proof.

The key part of the long article is this paragraph:

                          Unsuccessful Papal Intervention

             "This unlawful abuse is so well established as local custom that even Pope John Paul II, who made at least a paper attempt to curb the abuse was completely unsuccessful. In his letter Domincae Cenae of February 24, 1980, the Pope restated the Church̓s teaching that “to touch the sacred species and to administer them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained.” But, for whatever reason, this 1980 document contained no threat of penalty to any laymen, priest or bishop who ignored the Pope̓s plea. A law without a penalty is not a law, it̓s a suggestion. And this 15-year-old letter of Pope John Paul II has been taken as an unwelcome and unheeded suggestion by the hierarchy and clergy of Western countries."


If Pope Jphn Paul II wrote such a letter and it was unheeded "by the hierarchy and clergy of Western countries," laypeople cannot be held responsible for not knowing about it, much less for not obeying it.  


(08-20-2012, 03:58 PM)Revixit Wrote: [ -> ]If Pope Jphn Paul II wrote such a letter and it was unheeded "by the hierarchy and clergy of Western countries," laypeople cannot be held responsible for not knowing about it, much less for not obeying it.  

In itself, you're absolutely right.  However, the main point is, whatever anyone says about it, it IS an abuse.  Even Popes Paul and JP2 said so.

Secondarily, people do have an obligation to educate themselves concerning their religion, according to their time and personal capacity.  If JP2 tried to curb the abuse, he didn't exactly do so in secret...

There can be extenuating circumstances, of course.  But for heaven's sake, please, let's keep objective reality in view!  CITH is an abuse, and a terrible one.
Here is the complete paragraph:

To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist. It is obvious that the Church can grant this faculty to those who are neither priests nor deacons, as is the case with acolytes in the exercise of their ministry, especially if they are destined for future ordination, or with other lay people who are chosen for this to meet a just need, but always after an adequate preparation.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13