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Full Version: Cardinal Carlo Martini says Church '200 years behind'
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(09-01-2012, 08:30 PM)Pheo Wrote: [ -> ]'Old culture'
The cardinal - a member of the Jesuit religious order -

That's a surprise  ???


oh wait, no it isn't.
(09-05-2012, 01:21 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-05-2012, 12:19 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]maybe we should pray for him.  :pray: :pray: :pray:

We should pray for all men, living and dead, but I think the Cardinal, as an apostate, will need our prayers more than most.

I think we should be realistic. He died as he lived. There is more chance of you winning the lottery than Martini the apostate not being in Hell.
(09-05-2012, 04:28 AM)ggreg Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-05-2012, 01:21 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-05-2012, 12:19 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]maybe we should pray for him.  :pray: :pray: :pray:

We should pray for all men, living and dead, but I think the Cardinal, as an apostate, will need our prayers more than most.

I think we should be realistic. He died as he lived. There is more chance of you winning the lottery than Martini the apostate not being in Hell.

We don't actually know that.  Based on what we know, things do not look good for him, but there are many things we do not know.  It really is not a good idea to make pronouncements about this sort of thing.
Why not?  Few believe in Hell and even fewer will believe in it if we cannot opine with human certainty that Martini is there.

If he is not there it might as well be empty.  It would be easier to make a case for Judas who did not have 2000 years of tradition and explanation to fall back on.

Our generation did not stop believing in Hell because the Church was too ready to condemn sinners there.

It's not a pronouncement it is my opinion.  But I bet I am right.
(09-05-2012, 08:59 AM)ggreg Wrote: [ -> ]Why not?  Few believe in Hell and even fewer will believe in it if we cannot opine with human certainty that Martini is there.

If he is not there it might as well be empty.  It would be easier to make a case for Judas who did not have 2000 years of tradition and explanation to fall back on.

Our generation did not stop believing in Hell because the Church was too ready to condemn sinners there.

It's not a pronouncement it is my opinion.  But I bet I am right.

Hell exists and we know of many objective factors that determine whether people go there.  But God's judgment also involves many subjective factors that we can know nothing about.  We rarely know enough to make good guesses about this and there is a risk of our speculation causing scandal.  In most cases it is better to say nothing.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
At this time I would like to express my closeness in prayer and affection, to the entire Archdiocese of Milan, the Society of Jesus, relatives and all those who loved and esteemed Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini and have wanted to accompany him on this last journey.
"Your word is a lamp for my feet, a light for my path" (Ps 119: 105): the Psalmist's words can sum up the entire existence of this generous and faithful pastor of the Church. He was a man of God, who not only studied the Bible, but loved it intensely, he made it the light of his life, so that everything was "ad maiorem Dei gloriam," for the greater glory of God . And for this reason he was able to teach believers and those who were seeking the truth that the only word worthy of being listened to, accepted and followed is that of God, because it shows all the path of truth and love. He did so with a great openness of heart, never refusing to encounter and dialogue with anyone, responding concretely to the Apostle’s invitation to "always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope " (1 Peter 3:15). He was, with a spirit of profound pastoral charity, according to his Episcopal motto, Pro veritate adversa diligere, attentive to all situations, especially the most difficult, lovingly close to those who were lost, the poor, the suffering.
In one of the homilies of his long ministry at the service of this Ambrosian Archdiocese he thus prayed: "We ask you, Lord, make us spring water for others, bread broken for others, light to those who walk in darkness, life for those who grope in the shadows of death. Lord, be the life of the world, Lord, guide us towards your Easter, and together we will walk towards you, carrying your cross, we will taste communion with your resurrection. Together with you we will walk towards the Heavenly Jerusalem, towards the Father "(Homily of March 29, 1980).
May the Lord, who guided Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini his whole life, receive this tireless servant of the Gospel and of the Church in the Heavenly Jerusalem. May my blessing comfort all those present and those who mourn his loss.
From Castel Gandolfo, September 3, 2012
BENEDICTUS PP. XVI
[Image: martini%2Bin%2Bhell.jpg]
It seems to me that as we can have good hope for one who lived and died as a faithful Catholic, we can likewise deem improbable the salvation of one who made a habit of teaching error.  Nevertheless, we ought to pray for both, but so as not to cause scandal, have public masses said only for the former and not the latter (a priest would need probable evidence that one had faith and grace but who died outside the Church in order to offer a private mass for the repose of his soul).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm
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