FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Forgiveness
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2

[html]
Quote: Mark 11:25-26
And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins. But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.

Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him. And if he sin against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day be converted unto thee, saying, I repent; forgive him.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.
[/html]


The Bible is filled with talk of "forgiveness." I mean, think about what a VERY BIG DEAL "forgiveness" is:  without it, we are not forgiven; we go to Hell. But it's not spoken of enough, it seems to me. Even what it means isn't clear. What exactly do you think is meant by the word? I've heard it defined as "giving up one's right to be angry" and "letting go of the past" and such. Dictionaries define it as:


for·give  (fr-gv, fôr-)
v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
v.tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

forgive [fəˈgɪv]
vb -gives, -giving, -gave, -given
1. to cease to blame or hold resentment against (someone or something)
2. to grant pardon for (a mistake, wrongdoing, etc.)
3. (tr) to free or pardon (someone) from penalty
4. (tr) to free from the obligation of (a debt, payment, etc.)
[Old English forgiefan; see for-, give]

forgive
v forgive [fəˈgiv]
1 to stop being angry with (someone who has done something wrong) He forgave her for stealing his watch.
2 to stop being angry about (something that someone has done) He forgave her angry words.
n forgiveness [fəˈgivnis]
1 the act of forgiving He asked for forgiveness.
2 readiness to forgive He showed great forgiveness towards them.
adj forˈgiving
ready to forgive (often) a forgiving person.


--- but what do you think God means by it in Sacred Scripture? Through the Sacrament of Confession, we express our contrition to a priest and Christ forgives us, meaning we are restored to a state of grace and are allowed to enter Heaven. But when we forgive someone, what does it mean, what happens, what are the effects. how do we know when we've actually "forgiven"? What to do with those who aren't sorry? What about those who are sorry, but not sorry enough to make restitution?  It seems that "giving up one's right to be angry" can be done without another's contrition -- but is that what is meant in Scripture? Is forgiveness from God His "giving up His right to be angry"? If so and if it is, in some way, like human forgiveness, then contrition on our part wouldn't be necessary -- perfect or imperfect. But we know that contrition is necessary for us to be forgiven -- so how does that play into our forgiving others?

As an aside, what do you guys think of the common parental thing of saying, to a kid who screws up, something like, "Say you're sorry." "But I'm not!" "Say you're sorry anyway or you'll get a spanking!" What about the above in light of the idea of attrition (or "imperfect contrition")?
It seems to me that everybody thinks their forgiven today no matter what they do except of course those who are good but have low self-esteem
I would imagine that the difference between our forgiving (unconditionally with or without the offenders repentance) and God's forgiving (with repentance being a condition) is due to the fact that in all offenses it is God who is primarily offended.

In our case the offense may even be justified as we ourslves are rarely -if ever- without guilt.
Even if we are offended unjustly, the injustice could be accepted in consideration of the many wrongs we ourselves have committed against others without being called to account.

God can justly seek repentance as a condition of His forgiveness. We can't.
Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Rm 12:19)
I've heard the clergy say that God gives us unconditional love.  That is not true.  There are conditions for his love.  If God gave us unconditional love, there would not be a hell.
Forgiving someone -- for us -- means that we don't allow anger, bitterness or resentment to fester and that we wish them well, especially eternal salvation. Restitution might be part of it, or maybe not. Restitution is justice. When we forego restitution, it's mercy. Mercy is the greater of the two. The Bible is very clear about God being merciful to the one who extends mercy.

God always loves us unconditionally, whether we are sorry or not, whether we go to hell or not, because that is God's nature. GOD IS LOVE. He will only forgive us when we seek forgiveness, as a response to his grace. His justice might require some restitution, but his mercy can pay the full debt for us. Parable after parable confirms this. Think about it. Can anything we DO really make up for the temporal punishment for sin? Isn't this why Christ died for us?
For Christians, forgiveness means to be merciful towards those who sin against us just as God was merciful in forgiving our sins. Did we deserve His forgiveness? No but He still forgave us anyway. So therefore we must forgive, forget the trespasses of those who offend us, to love them in light of Christ just as we were loved by Him. It is the man who knows how wicked he was before experiencing God's mercy that will be able to show true evangelical forgiveness in word and deed towards his neighbours.

Quote:His justice might require some restitution, but his mercy can pay the full debt for us. Parable after parable confirms this. Think about it. Can anything we DO really make up for the temporal punishment for sin? Isn't this why Christ died for us?

Christ paid it all and fully appeased God's wrath and justice. There's nothing left.
(09-29-2012, 09:49 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: [ -> ]For Christians, forgiveness means to be merciful towards those who sin against us just as God was merciful in forgiving our sins. Did we deserve His forgiveness? No but He still forgave us anyway. So therefore we must forgive, forget the trespasses of those who offend us, to love them in light of Christ just as we were loved by Him. It is the man who knows how wicked he was before experiencing God's mercy that will be able to show true evangelical forgiveness in word and deed towards his neighbours.

Quote:His justice might require some restitution, but his mercy can pay the full debt for us. Parable after parable confirms this. Think about it. Can anything we DO really make up for the temporal punishment for sin? Isn't this why Christ died for us?

Christ paid it all and fully appeased God's wrath and justice. There's nothing left.
Wrong. If I deliberately break your window, and then repent, I can get your forgiveness, and Gods, but I still have to replace your window. King David was forgiven by God for his horrible sins, but God did not stop the horrible consequences David experienced even after God forgave him. I tell you you will not get to heaven till YOU pay the last penny.


(09-28-2012, 10:42 PM)columb Wrote: [ -> ]I would imagine that the difference between our forgiving (unconditionally with or without the offenders repentance) and God's forgiving (with repentance being a condition) is due to the fact that in all offenses it is God who is primarily offended.

In our case the offense may even be justified as we ourslves are rarely -if ever- without guilt.
Even if we are offended unjustly, the injustice could be accepted in consideration of the many wrongs we ourselves have committed against others without being called to account.

God can justly seek repentance as a condition of His forgiveness. We can't.
Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (Rm 12:19)

This is a good description.

I think it is correct to say that the primarily offended party is actually God. The only way I've found forgiveness to be possible is to remember that when someone has done something to hurt me, it also hurts Christ on the cross, and Our Lord helps me to bear the burden of that hurt.

We all have a tendency to think "Christ died to atone for my sins", and then forget the obvious that He also died to atone for other people's sins too. And if that's true, forgiveness is at least partly about giving up our desire to make that person repay us since it has already been paid.  (Speaking spiritually. Temporally, seems like another discussion altogether.) And then extending God's abundant grace and mercy to them.
I think on a nuts and bolts level even for those who are "good" it is those little "clinkers" we all indulge. People get us  angry and we scheme in our hearts but we don't always put the scheme into action, often, but forgiveness means we should resist even that. The hardest thing and I heard this from a Father, for those that practice their faith well, the problem is those little schemes. They have conquered mortal sins, they don't steal, cheat on their spouse, murder, perjure, miss Mass etc. but he said we can not help ourselves from ascribing motives to others, and that leads to the schemes temptation. I won't admit it here, to what extent, but I am sure others suffer it too.

tim
(09-29-2012, 04:37 PM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]I think on a nuts and bolts level even for those who are "good" it is those little "clinkers" we all indulge. People get us  angry and we scheme in our hearts but we don't always put the scheme into action, often, but forgiveness means we should resist even that. The hardest thing and I heard this from a Father, for those that practice their faith well, the problem is those little schemes. They have conquered mortal sins, they don't steal, cheat on their spouse, murder, perjure, miss Mass etc. but he said we can not help ourselves from ascribing motives to others, and that leads to the schemes temptation. I won't admit it here, to what extent, but I am sure others suffer it too.

tim

This is where I find myself, and I often feel eaten up by the "little schemes," as you call them. When I reflect on it, I think I understand why Our Lord said, "no man is good but God alone."
Pages: 1 2