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(09-29-2012, 08:37 PM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:20 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]Will somebody tell me about BLACK BILE and people have told me the temperments were from the Dark Ages and are unscientific but i find truth in them.

The "temperaments" are as scientific as astrology or Tarot card reading or crystal balls and just as useful.

I don't believe that and would like to see proof of that. Not meant to be insulting or anything like that. I just want proof of what you say, that's all.
(09-30-2012, 03:03 AM)HailGilbert Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:37 PM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:20 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]Will somebody tell me about BLACK BILE and people have told me the temperments were from the Dark Ages and are unscientific but i find truth in them.

The "temperaments" are as scientific as astrology or Tarot card reading or crystal balls and just as useful.

I don't believe that and would like to see proof of that. Not meant to be insulting or anything like that. I just want proof of what you say, that's all.

I believe it is possible to categorize people in terms of personality traits and sometimes useful to do so.

However, if Dr. Bombay is referring to the medieval approach of explaining these categories as functions of blood and bile, I think his comment is justified.
Please Understand Me II is a great one on temperaments.
(09-30-2012, 03:03 AM)HailGilbert Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:37 PM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:20 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]Will somebody tell me about BLACK BILE and people have told me the temperments were from the Dark Ages and are unscientific but i find truth in them.

The "temperaments" are as scientific as astrology or Tarot card reading or crystal balls and just as useful.

I don't believe that and would like to see proof of that. Not meant to be insulting or anything like that. I just want proof of what you say, that's all.

Read your astrological sign profile and see if it doesn't describe you pretty accurately, with several traits not describing you at all.  Then read the other ones and see if they don't describe you as well.  Chances are they will, to one extent or another. 

It's the same way with temperaments.  Using such a broad brush to categorize every human being who has ever been born is less than useless. Like astrology, this type of thing works because people want it to work.  It can also be used as an excuse for bad behavior.  "I can't help it!  I'm a Choleric/Sagittarius/Whatever.  It's not my fault!"  The interpretation of various types can be made almost universally applicable and there's always a "reasonable" explanation for any inconsistency. 

It's nonsense, plain and simple.  A cursory study of the "science" or lack thereof behind the temperaments is all the proof you should need, Gilbert.  The temperaments are nothing but astrology for neo-Cats and Trads.  It's rubbish and best avoided. 
(09-29-2012, 07:57 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm ... explain further. Maybe it depends on the person. When I get melancholic, I retreat, i.e., I don't want to talk to you or anybody. I lose total confidence in you and respect for you. It usually lasts throughout the night. This strikes me less than before, because I am aware of it.
THIS IS MY WIFES MODUS OPARANDI!!! Wow is there anything I can do to help her get over this stuff or is it forvever hardwired?
(09-30-2012, 12:39 PM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-30-2012, 03:03 AM)HailGilbert Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:37 PM)DrBombay Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 08:20 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ]Will somebody tell me about BLACK BILE and people have told me the temperments were from the Dark Ages and are unscientific but i find truth in them.

The "temperaments" are as scientific as astrology or Tarot card reading or crystal balls and just as useful.

I don't believe that and would like to see proof of that. Not meant to be insulting or anything like that. I just want proof of what you say, that's all.

Read your astrological sign profile and see if it doesn't describe you pretty accurately, with several traits not describing you at all.  Then read the other ones and see if they don't describe you as well.  Chances are they will, to one extent or another. 

It's the same way with temperaments.  Using such a broad brush to categorize every human being who has ever been born is less than useless. Like astrology, this type of thing works because people want it to work.  It can also be used as an excuse for bad behavior.  "I can't help it!  I'm a Choleric/Sagittarius/Whatever.  It's not my fault!"  The interpretation of various types can be made almost universally applicable and there's always a "reasonable" explanation for any inconsistency. 

It's nonsense, plain and simple.  A cursory study of the "science" or lack thereof behind the temperaments is all the proof you should need, Gilbert.  The temperaments are nothing but astrology for neo-Cats and Trads.  It's rubbish and best avoided.   

I believe the precise term for this is the Forer effect,* and it applies not merely to the temperaments and horoscopes but also to more "scientific" personality tests.  Myers-Brigg, for instance, is little more than an expensive version of the temperament test dressed up to sound science-y.  (Plus, isn't it nice being able to pigeon-hole other people into a set of vague, pseudo-mystical acronyms?  Ooh, you're an INFP...)  People will always personalize generalizations.  This makes sense to some extent; the problem is when they believe those generalizations are predictive for them.  As you note, this often takes the form of a simple-minded determinism toward one's behavior.


Anyway, I'm a choleric, so no one should bother arguing with me about this.   Sticking tongue out at you


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect
(09-30-2012, 02:51 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 07:57 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm ... explain further. Maybe it depends on the person. When I get melancholic, I retreat, i.e., I don't want to talk to you or anybody. I lose total confidence in you and respect for you. It usually lasts throughout the night. This strikes me less than before, because I am aware of it.
THIS IS MY WIFES MODUS OPARANDI!!! Wow is there anything I can do to help her get over this stuff or is it forvever hardwired?

An acute case of melancholia fixer? How 'bout a lip sinking Amish yodeler!



(09-30-2012, 03:18 PM)Jacafamala Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-30-2012, 02:51 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 07:57 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm ... explain further. Maybe it depends on the person. When I get melancholic, I retreat, i.e., I don't want to talk to you or anybody. I lose total confidence in you and respect for you. It usually lasts throughout the night. This strikes me less than before, because I am aware of it.
THIS IS MY WIFES MODUS OPARANDI!!! Wow is there anything I can do to help her get over this stuff or is it forvever hardwired?

An acute case of melancholia fixer? How 'bout a lip sinking Amish yodeler!



if I played this nonsense for her during a mood...Id be an obituary lol
(09-30-2012, 02:51 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-29-2012, 07:57 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm ... explain further. Maybe it depends on the person. When I get melancholic, I retreat, i.e., I don't want to talk to you or anybody. I lose total confidence in you and respect for you. It usually lasts throughout the night. This strikes me less than before, because I am aware of it.
THIS IS MY WIFES MODUS OPARANDI!!! Wow is there anything I can do to help her get over this stuff or is it forvever hardwired?

I don't know if it is forever. Ever since I read books on temperament I am more aware of it, so I know why I feel the way I do. It is really dangerous in terms of faith because I can be very judgemental of my superiors, who will always fail. Reading up on it is good. The Please Understand Me II book, and the Conrad Hock book (as it relates to religion) are great. I would read them together and talk out loud about each others propensities. I guess you just need to ride it out. Be patient, and don't push the subject at that moment. I am usually better by the next day. My wife isn't a melancholic, so I don't know what I am like! I know that I need to focus on the "big picture" and not get swept up in moment. It is aligned in my case with a judgementalism and can turn into a really grumpy old man who is the only right person in the world. I purposely have to engage my other qualities to counteract this. I try to be outgoing. I try to see the "good side" of people. I try to be quick to forgive and forget. Each person is unique, but some of these traits seem universal.

As for what DrB said, some people have shades of temperaments. It is a self-admitted inexact science which is meant to help us understand ourselves, not put us into a box. Also as a person matures, they will be less tied to their temperament, can step outsides themselves, and engage in the opposite tendencies.
(09-30-2012, 04:48 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Each person is unique, but some of these traits seem universal.

As for what DrB said, some people have shades of temperaments. It is a self-admitted inexact science which is meant to help us understand ourselves, not put us into a box. Also as a person matures, they will be less tied to their temperament, can step outsides themselves, and engage in the opposite tendencies.

Well, of course they're universal.  That's the point.  Humans behave in ways that are stable through time and across cultures (to a point).  These tests make claims that are just particular enough to seem that they are really and truly identifying us; however, I can go through each description of each temperament and see attributes that resemble me or that resemble me at certain moments.  Perhaps I identify with more of the choleric traits than others (and I do, despite the fact that the test indicated I am phlegmatic--mostly because I rather enjoy leisure) but I could probably pretty easily make the case for sharing just enough of the other traits to qualify as having those temperaments, too.  And if you have all four of those temperaments, what does that make you?  Just a human, I'd suspect.  We're mutable creatures.

And I'm not really sure how illuminating any of these tests really is.  Do I need to know that I am a "choleric" in order to realize that I become irritated when things don't go my way, that I have a tendency to expect others to adhere to my will, and that I can be impulsive?  No.  Any relatively self-conscious and reflective person knows this about himself.  Did you need the temperament test (or Myers-Brigg or a horoscope or...) to tell you these things?  What benefit is there to having some vague label to apply to one's behavior?  I didn't learn anything new about myself by suddenly finding out that I'm choleric.  I know I can be proud, ambitious, and quick to anger, and I am aware that these are failings of mine and that I need to remedy them for my soul's sake.  I am just having a hard time grasping how this is really a tool for better self-understanding, unless you simply have no self-awareness whatsoever.

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