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Full Version: Children at the NO: Is it confusing for them?
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(11-13-2012, 07:51 PM)JMartyr Wrote: [ -> ]But which one is the real NO Mass. The  deficient version is most wide spread and allowed ,as far as we know, by the bishops .

Is there a rubric for chatter, solvenly dress, "extraordinary" ordinary eucharistic ministers, etc.? This same attitude to the Mass is the one that produced priests who, in the traditional Mass, zoom through the Latin, make jerked movements, preached endlessly with twelve appropriate points to close, etc. Any option can be exploited to its worst possible expression. Also there is liturgical abuse. Seeing the example of the Pope, and the texts on the liturgy since the 60s, there is no reason for there to be a sanction of an irreverent New Mass. Obviously the problem has a core. Some problems need to be straightened out in the Mass. We need to go back to facing the Lord, for instance. Some are construction and arrangement of Churches. And then there is the behavior of the people. I've been to traditional Masses in which people were not engaged, sitting in the back chatting, and texting. It's a multi-front effort. The point is that so much is outside of the actual Mass. We all know this when we have seen a smells and bells New Mass. Just look at them on YouTube.
(11-13-2012, 06:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]By child I mean "in the care of parents."  So whether that's when you were 6 or 17 or whatever.  Those who weren't raised Catholic don't really have an option. 

JayneK claims that the only reason a child would think that they are attending liturgies for two different religions is if a misguided adult told them that.  I thought it would be interesting to see if that's the case.  Not that this poll would be authoritative, but it's always nice to get an idea from the forum.

Under your guidelines, I attended both. Attended my first TLM at age 16. My mother didn't really care for it, since all Masses are "the same thing". I wasn't confused, I just learned more.

Eventually, she grew tired of the NO, and she'll only go out of necessity. I won't.
(11-13-2012, 10:41 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-13-2012, 06:18 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: [ -> ]By child I mean "in the care of parents."  So whether that's when you were 6 or 17 or whatever.  Those who weren't raised Catholic don't really have an option. 

JayneK claims that the only reason a child would think that they are attending liturgies for two different religions is if a misguided adult told them that.  I thought it would be interesting to see if that's the case.  Not that this poll would be authoritative, but it's always nice to get an idea from the forum.

Under your guidelines, I attended both. Attended my first TLM at age 16. My mother didn't really care for it, since all Masses are "the same thing". I wasn't confused, I just learned more.

Eventually, she grew tired of the NO, and she'll only go out of necessity. I won't.

I would suppose that for an older "child" that would be true. 

And a younger child may not know they're confused.

Oh yeah.

I had to change my answer because of your technicality. I would never bring a child to what Abp. Lefebvre called "the bastard rite."
I only knew of NO until I reverted and dove right in. Did you catch that... I chose not to make my Confirmation when I was in the NO system. (and the public school system) It was so bad in my young adult life eventually I was completely estranged from Jesus Christ. In fact, I didn't really understand or know much about Catholicism so with poor faith formation it was bound to happen. I was what you would call a ChrEastian. Christmas Eve Mass, sometimes Easter, random scant Sundays only taken during CCDs for 1st communion and dropped off by myself 8 years old at church. It used to make me mad I was alone when others had their family but that's a deeper issue cuz I was adopted by my aunt. I can still see all the tall bodies standing around me. I remember having to hold the hand of a man with 2 thumbs on his hand- I was scared but it turned out ok, he smiled at me and said I had a nice voice and I should join the choir. Anyway, I remember wondering why I couldn't remember the Nicene Creed and getting upset about that. A bit of a perfectionist Smile I saw my first Sister there. I was awed even then, knowing she knew something I didn't know about the importance of all this Catholicism. Made my first Confession- face to face the most awful scary thing to do as a kid- and Communion (was never taught that whole state of grace thing) and didn't go back to Confession until I reverted and taught myself through the web with sites like fisheaters Smile I got a rosary and was given a paper to pray it and my ex uncle would see my trying and tease me that he was going to send me to a nunnery to become a nun. There was a 6 year break from Church. I was asked if I wanted to make my Confirmation, went to lifeteen but no one there seemed to want to be there so I came to dread it- wasn't really a faith forming safe place- kids are mean right. I actually got made fun of for bringing a bible and that some of it was highlighted. Yep, one of many reasons I left and went a looking for something else to fill the spiritual void.

I don't know if the TLM would have been better or not for me if all the circumstances were the same. Who really knows? Kids are only confused if not given information or given misinformation and not checked for understanding. I was such a girly girl I would have adored wearing veils though. In fact I remember my aunt talking about it once that she had to wear a doily when she was little and some women wore veils. Now that I remember, it was brought up because of the first communion veil lol. I think the Latin Mass would have been more confusing for me since I had no strong consistant faith guidance. Then again I would probably have zoned out on beautiful religious statues or artwork or stations. I never prayed the stations until this year can you believe that! Oh and the 13th station is my favorite! I can remember not paying attention to the Mass when little and just thinking about that giant Crucifix hung behind the altar. I remember looking at it and wanting to cry, looking at others going through the motions and looking back at the Crucifix and wanting to run outta there to hide my tears. I just knew He was still sad about something. Crazy how you remember things from so young. Sad thing is I went to visit my childhood parish and it was replaced by a resurrection cross. Just isn't the same. Like moving further inch by inch towards Protestant systems.

But

I came back because a little tiny seed was planted in those young NO years. Somehow it brought me back from the spiritually dead. Somehow it dawned on me that there is One God in the Holy Trinity of the Father the Son and Holy Spirit. I have personal proof that the same grace is in each Mass, NO or TLM. The optimal faith formation is by the book with the perfect form of worship in the TLM though. Now that I know better, Jesus deserves the best. The Church deserves the best. Let's pray the TLM and live the faith. I think somehow people forgot that traditions aid in passing down the faith from one generation to the next. In the effort to be opening the church some confused it with barren I guess.

My son complains about going to TLM because it is 2 hrs. Tough. He has also said he wants to be an alter boy or religious before. I think he sees the importance of church more at TLM. It's the one place where it is nothing about you or so and so, it's just adoring and worshiping Our Lord. Yep, much clearer in TLM. I am bias with this also because faith formation is vital to salvation of souls, I almost lost mine so I hope this helps form my children waaaaay better. Aside from what I try to teach. Oh and TLM trumps because it is the Mass the saints prayed Smile

If you read this far can you please add my aunt (candyapples aunt) to your prayers, may she come back to the Catholic Church, overcome her addictions, and find physical, emotional and spiritual healing. Pray for me to forgive her and heal from it all too. Thanks.
I asked my children this question (as it does not apply to me, a convert) and asked it of my husband, a revert.

Caveat: We never speak negatively about any mass in front of the children *unless* it is unavoidable.  (We had to leave a mass once, which required explanation.) 

Husband: He was very young when the NO came and barely remembered the TLM.  Learned to serve at the NO. 

Daughter (16):  "I would think if I walked in off the street into the two options, I would think they were different religions.  If I were educated about the Mass and the continuity were pointed out to me, I might not have that same impression.  But, they are *vastly* different."

Daughter (14): "You're not going to take us to  (name of Parish removed) are you?"

Son (13): "They are the same thing? Really? Hmmmm.  Guess I thought the English one was for people who couldn't find a conservative Baptist church to go to."

I appreciate this question, thank you!  I learned a little something about my children today just by listening to them reason this question out.
(11-13-2012, 06:30 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: [ -> ]I was born in 1955, so I was roughly 7 when Vatican II began, 10 when it ended, and 14 when the NO was officially promulgated. There was already a vernacular Mass of some sort before that, though. I don't remember being bothered by any of these, or thinking that there was any tremendous difference between them. It was just the Mass. I do remember being fidgety at Mass when I was young (this would have probably been the TLM), and being spanked for it when we got home. I eventually learned not to do that. And I think that this whole business of children misbehaving at Mass has to do with (1) the children (some are naturally more fidgety than others), and (2) how well they are trained by their parents, and relatively little to do with what type of Mass they are attending. If children are properly taught and disciplined, they will behave at the TLM, or at the NO, or at the grocery store, or at a movie. If not, they will misbehave at any or all of these.

Obviously, I voted for the first option.

Ditto and "This" to all of the above.


PS: I was born Jan 1956
As a child in the late 60's early 70's there was only NO Mass availble.

Our parents had no choice but to bring us to that to fulfill the obligation.

My first TLM was at my uncles ordination in 1983.
(11-14-2012, 04:15 PM)Old Salt Wrote: [ -> ]As a child in the late 60's early 70's there was only NO Mass availble.

Our parents had no choice but to bring us to that to fulfill the obligation.

My first TLM was at my uncles ordination in 1983.

Were your folks trads?
(11-14-2012, 04:29 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-14-2012, 04:15 PM)Old Salt Wrote: [ -> ]As a child in the late 60's early 70's there was only NO Mass availble.

Our parents had no choice but to bring us to that to fulfill the obligation.

My first TLM was at my uncles ordination in 1983.

Were your folks trads?
How do you measure that as them being "trads"?

They were Catholic if that is what you mean.
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