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So attend that missal.
There are High Chuch Lutherans in Scandinavia who have smells and bells, ad Orientem direction, and Latin. None of this can make up for their invalid orders, butchered rites, and perverted doctrine.

Where I live, the local conciliar cathedral is a joke when compared to the the ones the Episcopalians have.

Smells and bells, along with externals, do indeed matter, but in the absence of doctrine, they come to nought.
Made up rubrics make me upset.
(11-16-2012, 07:08 PM)rbjmartin Wrote: [ -> ]Made up rubrics make me upset.

I have not yet taken the time to watch the entire video, but which rubrics exactly do you think were "made up"?
(11-16-2012, 06:59 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]There are High Chuch Lutherans in Scandinavia who have smells and bells, ad Orientem direction, and Latin. None of this can make up for their invalid orders, butchered rites, and perverted doctrine.

Where I live, the local conciliar cathedral is a joke when compared to the the ones the Episcopalians have.

Smells and bells, along with externals, do indeed matter, but in the absence of doctrine, they come to nought.

Of course your examples are invalid services, as you admit. Yet, we know, even in these cases, these rites are more beneficial to men than the less reverent ones. It's just the nature of the matter. I posted this as an example of what the average parish can achieve (sans impressive and beautiful Mass setting), and how this would really help the faithful regain their piety and their faith. I wish my brethren in the local parish with the New Mass would have a better Mass. I wish their Masses better exemplified the four requirements and reasons the Catechism of Trent gave for the ceremonies added to the matter and form:

- to make it appear that holy things are handled by holy men by manifesting such a great religious reverence to the sacred mysteries;
- to display more fully the effects of the Sacraments, placing them, as it were, before our eyes, and to impress more deeply on the minds of the faithful the sanctity of these sacred institutions;
- to elevate to sublime contemplation the minds of those who behold and observe them with attention, and excite within them faith and charity; and
- to enable the faithful, therefore, to know and understand clearly the meaning of the ceremonies made use of in the administration of each Sacrament should be an object of special care and attention.

[Of course, the Catechism rightly assumes that all the text are orthodox and adequate, hence, "Catholic", prima facie.]

We should be in support of Pope Benedict's reform of the New Mass and the movement to have a more reverent New Mass. We should no longer create this dichotomy between traditionalists and Novus Ordo-ites. Let all come to the traditional Mass who will. For those who won't or can't, for some reason, let them have the most beautiful and reverent New Mass possible. If this was a visible and common position of the traditionalist movement, I think we would see more progress. We would see more collaboration amongst Catholics. We'd see more people coming to traditionalists for help and advice. Who here wishes to no longer oppose our brethren of good will? Who here no longer wishes to bad mouth them and degrade them? Who here will make the manly decision to reach out even if they themselves have been mistreated? The large dichotomy between the traditional Mass and the New Mass is partly maintained because we maintain an obstinate and closed position and often remain in antagonism and suspicious of our brethren, the one's in the pews being faithful, who want the treasures of the Church opened up.

Finally we can dispel the stereotype that the New Mass must and is always a happy-clappy stupid fest.
(11-16-2012, 07:58 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Of course your examples are invalid services, as you admit.

Even if they were valid, it would not be okay. Some anglicans have valid orders due to the Old Catholics. The Old Catholics themselves have valid orders and, oftentimes, the tridentine Mass, yet this does not mean we can attend them.

Cranmer was a validly consecrated bishop, a man endowed with the fullness of the priesthood. Yet his bastardized services, while probably still valid, would be poisonous to the Faith.
(11-16-2012, 07:58 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ][Of course, the Catechism rightly assumes that all the text are orthodox and adequate, hence, "Catholic", prima facie.]

Infallibility means the Church cannot give error. It isn't an excuse that can make up for the defects present in the Novus Ordo.
(11-16-2012, 07:58 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]We should be in support of Pope Benedict's reform of the New Mass and the movement to have a more reverent New Mass.

This is something I will not do, since it destroys tradition.
(11-16-2012, 07:58 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Finally we can dispel the stereotype that the New Mass must and is always a happy-clappy stupid fest.

I have serious theological concerns about the most "reverent," full of smells and bells, facing the altar NO.
(11-16-2012, 08:12 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]Even if they were valid, it would not be okay. Some anglicans have valid orders due to the Old Catholics. The Old Catholics themselves have valid orders and, oftentimes, the tridentine Mass, yet this does not mean we can attend them.

Cranmer was a validly consecrated bishop, a man endowed with the fullness of the priesthood. Yet his bastardized services, while probably still valid, would be poisonous to the Faith.

Yes, we don't go to their sacraments because they're schismatic and sometimes heretics, not because of the rite of their Mass. What's the Anglican Use like?

(11-16-2012, 08:12 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]Infallibility means the Church cannot give error. It isn't an excuse that can make up for the defects present in the Novus Ordo.

I've never received in discussion a good description or a good resource which states what the minimum is to rise a Mass above being "defective". How many times must the word oblation be used? What about host? Etc. It would be good to know, so we can all fix the New Mass, and for that matter fix the other rites too, which may end up being defective too.

(11-16-2012, 08:12 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]This is something I will not do, since it destroys tradition.

You know that tradition (custom) is changeable, hence it can't really be destroyed, unless of course we no longer held any customs.

(11-16-2012, 08:12 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]I have serious theological concerns about the most "reverent," full of smells and bells, facing the altar NO.

Yes, please address them as I said above. What are the requirements to rise above "defective"? Among the many requests I make of you and others which you and others fail to address, please help me. Just like I was looking for a parish that has the smells and bells like this, and does not thrive, but is atrophying and people lose the Faith. That would do a lot to change my mind. Please help me understand if you have the answers.
(11-16-2012, 06:59 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: [ -> ]There are High Chuch Lutherans in Scandinavia who have smells and bells, ad Orientem direction, and Latin. None of this can make up for their invalid orders, butchered rites, and perverted doctrine.

Where I live, the local conciliar cathedral is a joke when compared to the the ones the Episcopalians have.

Smells and bells, along with externals, do indeed matter, but in the absence of doctrine, they come to nought.

Wholeheartedly agree.
For what it is worth, I was ultimately turned off of the Novus Ordo because of the well done version; it just can't compete.

That being said, the only things that matter are validity and licity; anything saying different is trying to sell something.  The craptacular Mass at the SF Cathedral is the sacrifice of the Mass, in union with Benedict XVI.  A superior Mass not in union with Benedict XVI, whether from Eastern or Western schismatics, would not be preferable.
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