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Okay so lets suppose that the world still exists in 2062. The Church leaders by this time (God willing) will have realized the mistakes of the 100 year old Vatican II council. How will things be explained? How will the Pope etc. explain the errors of the past 100 years in faith and liturgy? Short of flat out lying or just saying essentially "oops our bad" how will the Church be able to save face? This is a question I have wondered for a long time and one of the reasons i don't think Pope Benedict has taken any major steps to correct things. He's a sharp cookie he has to know the BS going on in the Church is because of the Council, but to act to forcefully against it would show its errors. Anyway Discuss.
I will bite.

In 50 years, the Catholic Church will be led by a pope and bishops who do not repudiate VII nor blame it for all of the chaos of the late 20th and early 21st century. They will apply Sacrosanctum Concilium, and wherever VII does not specifically require something, the priests and bishops will opt for tradition. Masses in Latin, Gregorian chant, the NO reformed to be a very respectable sort of Low Mass. The Church will be much more practical, as so many who come to church today without believing anything will have left. There will be fewer homilies on far-flung theological issues, far more on living Catholicism practically, living charity with or families and unbelieving friends. It will be more quiet, less controversial because more politically irrelevant. There will be less need to convince non-believers of anything. There will be reunification with the Eastern Orthodox. Churches will be sold and will have given way to smaller, more dignified chapels owned by private layfolk. No one will waste their time and breath quarrelling over if VII was to blame for everything or for some things or whatever. That will be perceived as a total waste of time when the practical realities hit home. VII will never be repudiated simply because it never says anything definitive anyway. There will be a sort of assumption that what it means is the traditional view of Christianity with a sort of attmept to be kind to unbelievers of all kinds.
(11-20-2012, 07:46 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]I will bite.

In 50 years, the Catholic Church will be led by a pope and bishops who do not repudiate VII nor blame it for all of the chaos of the late 20th and early 21st century. They will apply Sacrosanctum Concilium, and wherever VII does not specifically require something, the priests and bishops will opt for tradition. Masses in Latin, Gregorian chant, the NO reformed to be a very respectable sort of Low Mass. The Church will be much more practical, as so many who come to church today without believing anything will have left. There will be fewer homilies on far-flung theological issues, far more on living Catholicism practically, living charity with or families and unbelieving friends. It will be more quiet, less controversial because more politically irrelevant. There will be less need to convince non-believers of anything. There will be reunification with the Eastern Orthodox. Churches will be sold and will have given way to smaller, more dignified chapels owned by private layfolk. No one will waste their time and breath quarrelling over if VII was to blame for everything or for some things or whatever. That will be perceived as a total waste of time when the practical realities hit home. VII will never be repudiated simply because it never says anything definitive anyway. There will be a sort of assumption that what it means is the traditional view of Christianity with a sort of attmept to be kind to unbelievers of all kinds.

Hmm.. very possible. I certainly think that if people would stop talking about VII it would go away. A Newman Church attached to the local college in the town I am from had a very "progressive" Priest that always used to give lectures every lent about what VII still needed to accomplish. It was the usual CINO crap. I peeked in at one of these lefty hootenannies once and saw that there were NO university student there, of the 7 people in attendance I would say 5 were under 60.

I think your scenario will only come to pass if like I said it just becomes another Council in the Churches history and not held up as the Council with Celebrations every anniversary of its opening.
(11-20-2012, 07:46 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]There will be reunification with the Eastern Orthodox.

What makes you think this, out of curiosity?  Personally, This I doubt, barring divine intervention the Orthodox will have nothing to do with us. The Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople is friendly true but, it is Russia that is the true center of Orthodoxy and Mount Athos in Greece and they are as hostile to Catholics as any 17th Century Calvinist Puritan.
(11-20-2012, 08:45 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-20-2012, 07:46 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]There will be reunification with the Eastern Orthodox.

What makes you think this, out of curiosity?  Personally, This I doubt, barring divine intervention the Orthodox will have nothing to do with us. The Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople is friendly true but, it is Russia that is the true center of Orthodoxy and Mount Athos in Greece and they are as hostile to Catholics as any 17th Century Calvinist Puritan.

Agreed. I would add that we would need to put our own house in order first as well as to expect a miracle.The Balamand Agreement would also have to be buried in the mists of time or publicly repudiated.
I admit the Eastern Orthodox thing was a bit of a wish, more than the other issues. But I also think we are going to get squeezed over the course fo the next 50 years, truly squeezed in every way in society. I think we will become harassed more and more, constantly on the defensive in our words, most uncool, and legally persecuted to the max. Such constraints may have the effect of removing irrelevant issues on both sides, and a return to the real issues of faith, liturgy, and the primacy of the Apostolic See. Today, in the West these are hotly contested issues, so it is no surprise that the Eastern Orthodox should be unwilling to see things our way. And then there is the Holy Spirit also, who acts in us, and for this alone there is hope. I believe that when the current pope was a cardinal, he remarked that we are very close to the Orthodox in faith, but far from each other on some emotional level, and that we were closer to the Anglicans on some emotional levels, and abysmally far in doctrine. Historical forces can remove emotional barriers, with a little good will. This is very similar to the whole SSPX thing. There are emotional barriers set up in the curia and in the SSPX against canonical reinsertion. But as time passes, difficulties will make the barriers look a little silly.
Mr Dying,

Also, no, please let them keep talking about VII and celebrating its anniversary. The more we do this, the older it will seem. What will happen when it seems to be . . . old? They will have to stop talking about it.

Also, the more they talk about it, the more it makes them argue over its meaning, instead of the former blind assumption that it means whatever you want it to mean. All the talk is leading to more serious arguments about what it actually means and says, and what our real relationship to it is supposed to be.
(11-20-2012, 05:53 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: [ -> ]Okay so lets suppose that the world still exists in 2062

I am afraid I do offer a happy picture. Note that I am NOT advocating such horrors, but only offering predictions.

1) Either the American Church (NO) will split off from the Roman Rite (NO) and form an American Rite or collapse into formal schism.

2) Female Deacons.

3) The final suppression of the TLM.

4) The extinguishing of the SSPX.

5) Organs will be abandoned.

6) Shared communion with all high church Prots.

Deus misereatur  Pray
Fifty years from now people will realize what a big mistake the contraceptive mentality is
Smile Smile Smile
Fun in a way to speculate, but consider this - it's 1925, and you are going to predict what the Catholic Church will be like in 1975. Who in their wildest, most bizzare fantasies would have even imagined the dreadful and total upheaval of everything Catholic that actually took place?? I say no one, save the most revolutionary modernists buried deep in the clerical hierarchy.

I do not believe there will be a traditonal renaissance that eventually supercedes the conciliar. The vast majority like the touchie-feely, values-free, non-judgemental, we're-all-gonna-be-with-Jesus-no-matter-what attitude that they get in the conciliar world. It's just so...easy.   
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