(11-25-2012, 11:54 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Gerard, I live firmly in reality. I know all these issues, am well versed in them. You bring them up to somehow give yourself credibility.
I bring up realities like the crisis in order to show that your positions do not live in the vacuum that you would prefer they live in.
Quote: Let's just spell it out. I don't think you mind. You distrust the Popes since 1958.
With good reason.
Quote: You distrust the hierarchy involved with investigating the lives of people.
Sure do. Again, with good reason.
Quote: You distrusted the testimony of a nun and her companions, including the doctors involved.
I distrust an article that I read.
Quote: You don't believe in canonizations anyways except as an act of "pious belief", apparently on the same level as private revelations, in contradiction to probably every theologian in the Church.
The term "pious belief" concerning canonizations is from St. Thomas Aquinas. And simply put, a theologian can go on all day, but public revelation is closed. If the theologians are right, they are wrong ipso facto because the Church is a fraud at that point.
Quote: Thus even with this lowered requirement, the increase in freedom to have this pious belief is not granted.
I'm not granting or preventing anyone from believing anything. I'm just not going to foment error while people fantasize about a Church that is more supernatural in their mind than the real Church established by Christ.
Quote: We know you'll come up here and argue against JPII when he is canonized.
I would hope God would not permit that scandal. Even if JPII repented and made it into Heaven (which of course would be a good thing.) That would be better served as a pleasant surprise for everyone after the final judgment.
Quote: Who knows, maybe you'll argue against Pius XII too.
Probably not. But the fact that we've had only 3 canonized Popes in the last 1000 years should be sobering to the pull of the cult of personality to have our own Popes be canonized when we're only looking at them as celebrities.
Quote: So, yes, you have freedom here to put our your views, but I will use my freedom to tell others that you seek to tear down faith and belief in the Church and her official acts.
And I will counter that what I'm tearing down in your false construction, a romantic facade that has nothing to do with the essence or ecclesiology of the Church. What I'm cleaning up and leaving people with is a clear understanding of the Church in which you can be disappointed with the Church Men, without losing your faith. What you offer is a romantic notion that leads to one of two things: Despair because the Church is lost as an organization (seed-position) or delusion and evil is good and lies are true and truth changes.(conservative Catholicism)
Quote: If Fatima is a private revelation, then it may optionally be observed, with no new requirements on the faithful. Thus Pope John XXIII could take or leave it. Or do you now hold pious beliefs to be on the level of obligatory dogmas?
Nope. I don't. But the heirarchy from John XXIII onwards has never been straight about the contents. If Pope John didn't believe in Fatima, he could've said so. But instead he and his successors have all either pretended to believe in it or have treated it with scorn if they did believe in it. Good luck to the Pope who holds either position.
Quote: John XXIII in the Council had faith in Christ. Novel that, right? Believing that when 2 or 3 were gathered in His name, He would be there.
For an Italian, John XXIII had a lot of blarney. An ecumenical council was being discussed during the later years of Pius XII and Card. Tardini brought up the idea to John. And then John came up with his "inspiration from the Holy Ghost." to hold a council. Yeah...right.
Quote: And as for periti, maybe John XXIII could sympathize with some of them, being himself falsely accused of modernism. He died before any of the texts were even accepted, so there is no way for you to judge him based on what people did after he died.
He was a liberal. He rehabilitated Montini and made him a Card. when Montini had been banished for being disobedient to Pius XII concerning contacts with the Communists. John XXIII was the "Typhoid Mary" of the Crisis in the Church. He lit the fuse that blew the rafters off the Church.