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We are so used to hearing bad news all the time. Here is some good news for a change. This is about the Catholic church in Macedonia. (You know, that place where Mother Theresa of Calcutta comes from)

http://www.zenit.org/article-36077?l=english
(12-05-2012, 05:09 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]We are so used to hearing bad news all the time. Here is some good news for a change. This is about the Catholic church in Macedonia. (You know, that place where Mother Theresa of Calcutta comes from)

http://www.zenit.org/article-36077?l=english

I was quite surprised to learn she was born in what is now Macedonia. Since she was Albanian, I'd always assumed she was born in one of the Sanjaks that became Albania. Learn something new everyday!
(12-05-2012, 05:19 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-05-2012, 05:09 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]We are so used to hearing bad news all the time. Here is some good news for a change. This is about the Catholic church in Macedonia. (You know, that place where Mother Theresa of Calcutta comes from)

http://www.zenit.org/article-36077?l=english

I was quite surprised to learn she was born in what is now Macedonia. Since she was Albanian, I'd always assumed she was born in one of the Sanjaks that became Albania. Learn something new everyday!


Macedonia was ruled for centuries by the Turkish muslim empire and by the commies after WWII. I have read recently that there were many christian families who were obliged to convert to Islam in order to avoid paying the dhimmi's tax. They converted but for appearance's sake only. Now the christians are no longer persecuted, these families who secretly remained christian for many generations have openly rejected Islam.
Isn't this wonderful? And a good slap in the face of the muslims so seldom in the times being.
(12-05-2012, 08:32 AM)maso Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-05-2012, 05:19 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: [ -> ]
(12-05-2012, 05:09 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]We are so used to hearing bad news all the time. Here is some good news for a change. This is about the Catholic church in Macedonia. (You know, that place where Mother Theresa of Calcutta comes from)

http://www.zenit.org/article-36077?l=english

I was quite surprised to learn she was born in what is now Macedonia. Since she was Albanian, I'd always assumed she was born in one of the Sanjaks that became Albania. Learn something new everyday!


Macedonia was ruled for centuries by the Turkish muslim empire and by the commies after WWII. I have read recently that there were many christian families who were obliged to convert to Islam in order to avoid paying the dhimmi's tax. They converted but for appearance's sake only. Now the christians are no longer persecuted, these families who secretly remained christian for many generations have openly rejected Islam.
Isn't this wonderful? And a good slap in the face of the muslims so seldom in the times being.

There is no such thing as a fake public denial of Christ, with a real retaining of communion with God. Unless those converts to the devil repented for their sin, they're in hell by all Catholic doctrine.
In my opinion you are a bit harsh.
Not everyone is made with the stuff of a martyr. Don't forget that St Peter too denied Jesus. God will took in account that they kept their faith and transmitted it to their childsren and grandchildren.
These cases are similar to the japanese christians who kept their faith for centuries after the jesuits were expelled.
(12-05-2012, 02:49 PM)SMKMI Wrote: [ -> ]There is no such thing as a fake public denial of Chris, with a real retaining of communion with Godt. Unless those converts to the devil repented for their sin, they're in hell by all Catholic doctrine.

Here's a quotation from Catholic Answers (our "not so beloved" CAF) that is relevant and I think reasonable:
Quote:Is it sinful to deny Christ under threat of death?

Full Question
If someone is told to deny Christ or acknowledge another religion or god under the threat of death, is it sinful to give in out of fear? I know modern culture doesn't demand this kind of heroic virtue, but in Revelation 2:10, Jesus says, “Be faithful unto death.”

Answer
Such a scenario is currently quite likely. Just recently some Fox News employees in the Middle East were coerced into accepting Islam. To accept an ideology contrary to one’s own under duress renders such an acceptance null by most civilized societies. Nevertheless, we are called to never betray our loyalty to Christ and his Church even under pain of torture and/or death. But only God knows how morally culpable one is who does break under such duress.

Mortal sin requires the deliberate consent of the sinner.  The threat of force and great fear that results can reduce one's ability to deliberate. It is for God to judge.  We know it is objectively a mortal sin to deny our faith, but God judges the subjective element, which is a necessary part of the culpability of sin.
(12-05-2012, 03:32 PM)maso Wrote: [ -> ]In my opinion you are a bit harsh.
Not everyone is made with the stuff of a martyr. Don't forget that St Peter too denied Jesus. God will took in account that they kept their faith and transmitted it to their childsren and grandchildren.
These cases are similar to the japanese christians who kept their faith for centuries after the jesuits were expelled.

St. Peter denied, but was forgiven having sought forgiveness. Had St. Peter died in that mortal sin, for arguments sake, what result would one expect? Not-Saint Peter, that's what.

While one's moral culpability is known only to God, the action is unequivocally a denial of Christ.

I'd rather be a martyr than burn in hell to stick around a few more years.

Harsh? Pfft. Martyrdom guarantees heaven. Why give that up? We're guaranteed death in some form at some time. Might as well make it mean something.
Yeah, but I mean the issue here isn't even martyrdom, right?  It's not paying jizya (the "dhimmi's tax").  To my mind apostasizing in order to retain one's material possessions doesn't exactly rise to the level of abandoning the Faith under threat of death.