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Full Version: Bishop Fellay: A Summary of Recent Events, 12-28-12
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There we go James.  Go to North Wales hire a long boat and invite the Hierarchy for cheese and wine on the hired barge.  I will be coming the other way on another much larger barge.  You and your wife step off onto the two path at the last minute.

Boating accident.
(01-03-2013, 04:11 AM)SaintRafael Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-02-2013, 11:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]This passage does not claim the Council's teaching is not authoritative.  Note the bolded phrase "has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity".  This means the teaching is authoritative.

From the FE website:
http://fisheaters.com/101.html

Quote:Authentic Magisterium:
Teaching by Pope, Bishop, or anyone with the proper authority to teach, that does not fit into the above two categories. All authorized teaching is owed proper, intelligent, prayerful religious assent, [b]but must be resisted if it leads to sin, compromises the Faith and the salvation of souls, or contradicts the above two levels of Magisterium, the Sacred Deposit of Faith, Scripture, and Tradition[/b]. [Note: some otherwise wonderful Catholics forget this category of teaching and think everything the Pope does and says is "infallible," an attitude that borders on papolatry. These Catholics are the "neo-conservatives" or "neo-Catholics" who defend the novelties since Vatican II and some of the scandalous behaviors of Bishops and the Holy Father -- e.g., Qu'ran-kissing, ecumenism that leads to indifferentism, etc. -- but while still truly trying to be orthodox.]

From my perspective some people are far too ready to claim that authoritative teachings lead to sin, compromise the Faith and the salvation of souls, or contradict Scripture, and Tradition.  They make such claims without adequate study, thought and understanding.
(01-02-2013, 11:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-02-2013, 05:42 PM)SaintRafael Wrote: [ -> ]Pope Paul VI:

Quote:“Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. [...] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is.” (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 58)

This passage does not claim the Council's teaching is not authoritative.  Note the bolded phrase "has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity".  This means the teaching is authoritative.

You should have read what immediately came after that paragraph in the article:
Quote:Vatican II did not “issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements” at all; that refers to infallible definitions, none of which were made. That Council was not infallible, did not claim to be and it was repeatedly said that it was not. Rather it claimed to “descend so to speak, into a dialogue with” man, “with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity” and to “express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach”. The Council was intended to reorient the Church to the world, to be “accommodating” and “friendly”, “up-to-date” with the pluralistic, liberal World Order.

The very same day, the Council’s pluralist “Declaration on Religious Liberty”, Dignitatis Humanae (Of the Dignity of Man), was finalised as addressed to the whole world.

“Over and above all this, in taking up the matter of religious freedom this sacred Synod intends to develop the doctrine of recent Popes on the inviolable rights of the human person and on the constitutional order of society. This Vatican Synod declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom.” (Dignitatis Humanae, Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, pp. 677-8)

The Vatican ordered all Catholic countries to alter their constitutions so that they would no longer be Catholic countries but would uphold liberal pluralism. Francisco Franco resisted and the Church attempted to undermine him. Before the Council, the Church had given him the title of “Defender of the Church”.

Paul VI gave the theological note of the revolutionary Council in his Apostolic Brief for its closing, “In Spiritu Sancto”(December 8, 1965), which was read at the closing ceremonies of that day by Archbishop Felici, the General Secretary. Paul VI had already stated in his address concluding the Council the day before that the Council had not “wish[ed] to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements” and therefore was not infallible; Felici went on to explain that Paul VI was making the Council a matter of religious submission, which is the assent given to non-infallible material, as we shall see.

“And last of all it was the most opportune, because, bearing in mind the necessities of the present day, above all it sought to meet the pastoral needs and, nourishing the flame of charity, it has made a great effort to reach not only the Christians still separated from communion with the Holy See, but also the whole human family. […] We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men. […] Given in Rome at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the] ring of the fisherman, Dec. 8, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the year 1965, the third year of our pontificate.” (In Spiritu Sancto, Walter M. Abbott, SJ, The Documents of Vatican II, pp. 738-9)

Paul VI established at the Council’s end that “all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed”. The 1983 Code of Canon Law distinguishes the matter of religious submission from infallible, definitive teaching.

“Can. 752. While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.”

So, “religious submission” is given when the Pope, either alone or with his bishops in a council, does not intend to “proclaim doctrine by a definitive act”: therefore the matter of religious submission is not infallible, which is why it does not require “the assent of faith”.

“Can. 749. In virtue of his office the Supreme Pontiff is infallible in his teaching when, as chief Shepherd and Teacher of all Christ’s faithful, with the duty of strengthening his brethren in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals. The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitively declare for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals.”

So, when Paul VI stated that “all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed”, he was making all the Council texts a matter of “religious submission” which is what is given to non-infallible matter. For the Council did not “proclaim definitively” any doctrine, “not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements”.

Paul VI again highlighted the non-infallible, non-definitive character of Vatican II in a general audience a year later.

“There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L’Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)

That is plain: Vatican II “avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority”; it “avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility”. The documents were intended to be of the ordinary but not universal magisterium, called the merely “authentic magisterium” in the 1983 Code.

Paul VI confirmed again in 1975 that Vatican II was pastoral and not an infallible dogmatic council.

“Differing from other Councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral.” (General Audience, August 6, 1975)

Vatican II was a uniquely non-infallible ecumenical council unlike any other. It was a vehicle of a revolution.
Just because a doctrine isn't dogma, that is, isn't defined doesn't mean that that same doctrine isn't infallible and/or authoritative. I think too that just because the council was authoritative doesn't automatically make it infallible, and it not being dogmatic doesn't necessarily mean it isn't infallible either. There is certainly at least some true doctrine in the documents of the Councils, like when it spoke in our Blessed Mother as Mediatrix of all Grace. Any rational traditionalist would accept at least that much about the Council.
Getting quite a few Google news alerts for the Society today regarding His Excellency's talk on the 28th. It seems liberal "Catholic" news sites are pointing out His Excellency's comments about Masons and Jews being enemies of the Church. One site headlines:

SSPX head: Jews are “enemies of the church”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbenc...he-church/

The Catholic Register States:

Apparently speaking without a text, he also called the Jewish people "enemies of the Church," saying Jewish leaders' support of the Second Vatican Council "shows that Vatican II is their thing, not the Church's."

http://www.catholicregister.org/news/int...tion-talks


One of the few remaining mortal sins left these days... Pointing out the authentic Church's position on the Jewish religion of today. Good on Bishop Fellay for courageously proclaiming this truth. Hopefully all Non-Catholics will blessedly heed the admonitions for conversion to the One True Faith....

It's interesting that these sites don't refute +Fellay's facts. All they can do is put on an accusatory tone. They don't dare bring up other subjects he discussed which are factual, such as Pope Paul VI's Mothers' grave site, the fact that 10% Of all newly ordained priests in France belong to the Society etc, etc.....
I tried to listen to ea, the vid and the mp3 but it just sounds creepy cuz it's so blurred on my phone. Is there a better link?
(01-04-2013, 09:07 PM)candyapple Wrote: [ -> ]I tried to listen to ea, the vid and the mp3 but it just sounds creepy cuz it's so blurred on my phone. Is there a better link?
I tried the mp3 also - downloaded from two different places - both are the same, slowed down so much it sounds creepy. Must be a platform thing that is messed up. I'll post if I find one that works. My phone Internet is to slow to even try the video.
Try these links



(01-04-2013, 09:07 PM)candyapple Wrote: [ -> ]I tried to listen to ea, the vid and the mp3 but it just sounds creepy cuz it's so blurred on my phone. Is there a better link?
I got it to work by downloading it on my phone, then moving the mp3 from my phone to my laptop (which is not connected to the Internet). Looks like the mp3 won't work on smart phone platform but will work on a regular computer.

Hope that helps!
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