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Pope Innocent III wrote to the Patriarch of Constantinople on November 12, 1199 a letter that contained the following passage:

Quote:The Lord reveals that he had prayed for him, saying in the crisis of his passion: I have prayed for thee, Peter, that thy faith fail not; and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren; by this signifying clearly, that his successors would at no time ever deviate from the faith, but would rather call back others."

Translation taken from D. L. d'Avray, "A Letter of Innocent III and the Idea of Infallibility," in The Catholic Historical Review , Vol. 66, No. 3 (Jul., 1980), pp. 419.

A full copy of the letter may be found in Theodosius T. Haluscynskyj, Acta Innocentii PP. III (Vatican City, 1944), 189.

Here it is in the original Latin:

[Image: innocentiii.png]

I came across this when looking for the source of an apparently spurious quote attributed to Innocent III that seemed to indicate the opposite of this passage. 

So...was Innocent III right, was he teaching error, or is this heretical?
I was unsure as to whether or not I should reply to this or just let you play with your LEGOS and bait people(by the way thats been reported) but, since you want to play games I would guess when a Pope speaks ex Cathedra he can not deviate from the faith. Right? Or would you suggest that when a Pope says Taco Bell is Better than Wendy's we must accept that as being infallible and quit patronizing Wendy's and eating their week old Chili?  Shrug
How is this thread not against the forum rules?

If this doesn't elicit a discussion a sedevacantism, then nothing does.
Heh.  Smile
(01-06-2013, 02:31 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: [ -> ]How is this thread not against the forum rules?

If this doesn't elicit a discussion a sedevacantism, then nothing does.

Thats what he is trying to do. Just ignore the troll.
I think an understanding of the authentic magisterium will do well here, since that level of teaching authority is not protected by the charism of infallibility.
Well, I'll see your quote and raise you three another quotes from the Church that suggest that a Roman Pontiff may indeed deviate from the faith:
Decretum Graitiani Wrote:Huius [papae] culpas redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus, quia cunctos ipse judicaturus a nemine est judicandus, nisi reprehendatur a fide devius" (Ia, dist. XL, c.6, Si papa; ex Gestis Bonifacii martyris)

"Let no mortal being have the audacity to reprimand a Pope on account of his faults, for he whose duty it is to judge all other men cannot be judged by anybody, unless he should be called to task for having deviated from the faith."

This maxim can be traced back to a Life of St Boniface written in the eighth century.

It is found in the words of Pope Innocent III (Sermo 2: In Consecratione):
Pope Innocent III Wrote:To this end faith is so necessary for me that, though I have for other sins God alone as my judge, it is alone for a sin committed against the faith that I may be judged by the Church. For ‘he who does not believe is already judged’.

We encounter it yet again in the Papal Bull of Pope Paul IV, Cum ex Apostolatus officio:
Pope Paul IV Wrote:In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.
Double post
(01-06-2013, 04:05 PM)Scotus Wrote: [ -> ]It is found in the words of Pope Innocent III (Sermo 2: In Consecratione):
Pope Innocent III Wrote:To this end faith is so necessary for me that, though I have for other sins God alone as my judge, it is alone for a sin committed against the faith that I may be judged by the Church. For ‘he who does not believe is already judged’.

The full quote from Innocent III gives a slightly different impression:
,
Quote:It is certain that faith belongs especially to my office. The Lord proclaimed it: "I," he said, "have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith may not fail, and you, once being converted, must confirm your brothers." He asked, and he received because "He was heard in all things by virtue of his reverence". For this reason the faith of the apostolic seat has never failed even during turbulent times, but has remained whole and unharmed so that the privilege of Saint Peter continues unshaken.  So necessary is faith for me as Pope, that, while I have God alone as judge of my other sins, I can be judged by the Church alone for any sin committed against the faith. For "he who does not believe is already judged." I believe - I most certainly believe - what I may believe as a Catholic, confident that my faith is bound to save me just as the promise says "Your faith has saved you. Go, and sin no more."

http://books.google.com/books?id=N4HXfREZN1gC&lpg=PA22&ots=RfYzKUUFjl&dq=%22%20For%20%E2%80%98he%20who%20does%20not%20believe%20is%20already%20judged%E2%80%99%22&pg=PA21#v=onepage&q&f=false
(01-06-2013, 04:05 PM)Scotus Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I'll see your quote and raise you three another quotes from the Church that suggest that a Roman Pontiff may indeed deviate from the faith:
Decretum Graitiani Wrote:Huius [papae] culpas redarguere praesumit mortalium nullus, quia cunctos ipse judicaturus a nemine est judicandus, nisi reprehendatur a fide devius" (Ia, dist. XL, c.6, Si papa; ex Gestis Bonifacii martyris)

"Let no mortal being have the audacity to reprimand a Pope on account of his faults, for he whose duty it is to judge all other men cannot be judged by anybody, unless he should be called to task for having deviated from the faith."

This maxim can be traced back to a Life of St Boniface written in the eighth century.

It is found in the words of Pope Innocent III (Sermo 2: In Consecratione):
Pope Innocent III Wrote:To this end faith is so necessary for me that, though I have for other sins God alone as my judge, it is alone for a sin committed against the faith that I may be judged by the Church. For ‘he who does not believe is already judged’.

We encounter it yet again in the Papal Bull of Pope Paul IV, Cum ex Apostolatus officio:
Pope Paul IV Wrote:In assessing Our duty and the situation now prevailing, We have been weighed upon by the thought that a matter of this kind [i.e. error in respect of the Faith] is so grave and so dangerous that the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.

Thank you, Scotus for your posting. Tip o' the hat
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