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(03-11-2013, 03:36 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:34 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]Your blowhard monologue is proof of your disordered mind.  And I'm not a dude.
So the fact that I can tell the difference between sin and temptation makes me intellectually disordered? That is a very strange point of view.

May God bless you and Our Lady watch over you.  There's little point in discussing this with you.
(03-11-2013, 03:38 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:36 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:34 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]Your blowhard monologue is proof of your disordered mind.  And I'm not a dude.
So the fact that I can tell the difference between sin and temptation makes me intellectually disordered? That is a very strange point of view.

May God bless you and Our Lady watch over you.  There's little point in discussing this with you.
Because I can rationally analyze the situation, and make distinctions, while you and others on this thread have shown nothing but digust with people who bear a cross?
Here's what I have learned from most of the posters on this thread. I'm a hell bound modernist becasue I believe that some chaste people with SSA might need some support because of the nature of the cross they bear. Even though I recognize the need to hold the entirety of the Catholic faith, including what we learned before vatican 2; even though I believe that the TLM is a superior mass, even though I am a faily strict Thomist working on a masters degree in philosophy from an orthodox Catholic institution,  I am merely a modernist who has a liturgy fetish. What is more, because I am able to distinguish between sin and temptation, I have a disordered mind. Fantastic.

No wonder so many people I have met went running from the traditionalist movement to an Eastern Catholic Church. We traditionalists have become our own worst enemy.
Papist, you're right.

Many people on this thread are motivated by disgust or even hatred.  What does Our Lord tell us to do in these circumstances?

I joined this forum back in 2009 with the intention of never forgetting that the Gospel is at the basis of Catholic tradition.  (You can read one of my first posts here:  http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg32549287.)  I've decided to renew my purpose and remind myself and others about the Gospel.

The Institute of Christ the King is particularly strong on this point.  They stress the utter inseparability of truth and charity.

One sure way of driving away all of these satans -- and they are acting like satans (accusers) -- is to invoke the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
If you have to translate it every time, it's probably best to just avoid calling other posts "satans."  It carries more than just the meaning "accuser" in any Catholic's mind, and I think you know that.  I realise this can be an emotionally charged topic...but then so it that term.
(03-10-2013, 06:18 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]One of the things that I like about the term SSA is that it is not a label to describe what people are but rather a word that describes something that people have.  It is comparable to me saying that I have a problem with lust, rather than saying that I am a luster.  This just seems so much clearer.  And I agree with your observation about why it is less problematic. 

I concede that SSA is a useful term and yes, confessors, spiritual directors, philosophers and theologians all have use for such terminology when discussing such issues and talking to people with those sorts of impulses.  Like most terminology dealing with spiritual issues though, it's far more useful in spiritual counseling and dry discussions of morality and social issues than it is as a label to be applied in public.

(03-11-2013, 08:25 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]What I talked about in my last post is that people in this thread have been arguing against the idea of someone with SSA describing himself as a person with SSA, acting as if that is a problem, especially when that person is chaste. Being chaste doesn't mean that that person's sexual orientation has changed, and if he is, in fact, still suffering from SSA, then he is and there should be no problems with him describing himself as such, IMO.

I'm afraid I agree with the others on this one for a very simple reason: prudence (which is a virtue and therefore desireable).  As I stated earlier, it is very unwise to carelessly inform anyone regarding the inner secrets of one's own soul.  It doesn't matter what the exact matter is, whether it be venial sins, mortal sins, faults or temptations against the 6th commandment or any other commandment.  Exposing the hidden depths of one's own soul may not qualify as detraction but it's still something that should be done only to select people in cases where one or both parties can benefit from it.

Giving out that information without discretion will result in people who should never have been told learning about it.  Some people are easily tempted to sins of detraction and/or rash judgement.  Some people have the fault of taking scandal at the littlest thing.  It's not a good idea to become a source of temptation for those people.  People discuss the virtue of modesty all the time.  Don't be a source of temptation for those prone to sin against the 6th commandment.  Well the same applies to the other commandments too (such as the 8th).  Last but not least, there are very evil people out there who will purposefully exploit any weakness they see in others.  Don't let those people know your predominate faults.  EVER.  They will try to send you to hell.

In case anyone thinks I'm speaking about the Courage group, I'm not.  I know nothing about them and therefore have no opinion regarding them outside of this: it's probably best to let someone's confessor or spiritual director decide if joining is a good idea or not.


(03-10-2013, 05:25 PM)StCeciliasGirl Wrote: [ -> ]Wait, we can't call them gay? My friends would be very surprised that they're not gay, even though they're chaste.  ???

Why would they want to call themselves by the same term that was purposefully selected by groups wanting to promote homosexual actions?  There's a reason why progressives and modernists like to play word games so much.  "Gay" is another one of those words that has several dictionary meanings plus a whole set of separate societal perceptions surrounding it.  When groups pushing social agendas start playing funny word games it usually results in communication problems when someone attempts to use the words strictly according to their dictionary definition (i.e. attracted to same sex but not necessarily engaging in it).

(03-11-2013, 03:26 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:06 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 02:31 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 02:24 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 12:32 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 12:26 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]I find it harder to have an abhorrence for the sins that cry out to Heaven when they're talked about, not to mention when they're joked about or examined publicly.
Again, there is a difference between the condition, SSA, and the sin of homosexual acts.

Do you agree that it's a mortal sin to dwell on thoughts about SSA?  How about joking about it?  Or chatting about it?
It's definitely a mortal sin to fantasize. It's a mortal sin to talk about it if one is purposely trying to titilate oneself or others. It is not a mortal sin to say "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can not see how that would be helpful.  Again to me it seems like you'd be flaunting it or even trolling for like minds.

You probably don't understand because your don't struggle with SSA. I suggest shifting out of the "everyone is attracted to persons of the same gender is scum" gear, and shift into, Christ wants me to show mercy to others gear.

Well I am in the second gear so I will say this with mercy.  Here are three different scenarios if you happened to say the above to a Catholic, a Protestant and the wrong person.

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
Catholic "Hi, oh I see.  See you."

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
Protestant "Oh yeah, did you learn that from your priest?  Did you know the next Pope is going to be the antichrist?"

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
The wrong person "Get out of my sight before I knock your block off."

I'm serious Papist, you may think society is accepting of people with same sex attraction but there is still a very large part of the population that despise it.  For your own safety you may not want to say that to everyone you meet.  And I certainly do not think you should be even mentioning it in your introduction if your plan is to try to spread the Word of God, because they are a contradiction to each other.

Here's an alternative.

Papist "Hi, I'm bob.  Nice day eh."

If you are chaste I don't see why you even have to mention anything about your sexuality.  You know, you don't hear people introducing themselves like, "Hi, I'm bob.  I'm a reformed womanizer." or "Hi, I'm bob.  I'm a reformed adulterer." or "Hi, I'm suzy.  I used to be very promiscuous but I'm alright now."

I just don't see why you think you have to tell the world.        
(03-11-2013, 07:49 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:26 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 03:06 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 02:31 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 02:24 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 12:32 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-11-2013, 12:26 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: [ -> ]I find it harder to have an abhorrence for the sins that cry out to Heaven when they're talked about, not to mention when they're joked about or examined publicly.
Again, there is a difference between the condition, SSA, and the sin of homosexual acts.

Do you agree that it's a mortal sin to dwell on thoughts about SSA?  How about joking about it?  Or chatting about it?
It's definitely a mortal sin to fantasize. It's a mortal sin to talk about it if one is purposely trying to titilate oneself or others. It is not a mortal sin to say "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can not see how that would be helpful.  Again to me it seems like you'd be flaunting it or even trolling for like minds.

You probably don't understand because your don't struggle with SSA. I suggest shifting out of the "everyone is attracted to persons of the same gender is scum" gear, and shift into, Christ wants me to show mercy to others gear.

Well I am in the second gear so I will say this with mercy.  Here are three different scenarios if you happened to say the above to a Catholic, a Protestant and the wrong person.

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
Catholic "Hi, oh I see.  See you."

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
Protestant "Oh yeah, did you learn that from your priest?  Did you know the next Pope is going to be the antichrist?"

Papist "Hi, I'm bob. I am attracted to members of the same sex. This is what I do to overcome these temptations. Perhaps this will be helpful to you."
The wrong person "Get out of my sight before I knock your block off."

I'm serious Papist, you may think society is accepting of people with same sex attraction but there is still a very large part of the population that despise it.  For your own safety you may not want to say that to everyone you meet.  And I certainly do not think you should be even mentioning it in your introduction if your plan is to try to spread the Word of God, because they are a contradiction to each other.

Here's an alternative.

Papist "Hi, I'm bob.  Nice day eh."

If you are chaste I don't see why you even have to mention anything about your sexuality.  You know, you don't hear people introducing themselves like, "Hi, I'm bob.  I'm a reformed womanizer." or "Hi, I'm bob.  I'm a reformed adulterer." or "Hi, I'm suzy.  I used to be very promiscuous but I'm alright now."

I just don't see why you think you have to tell the world.        
First, If you honestly think that I introduce myself as a person who struggles with SSA, then you have no idea what you are talking about. SSA is merely a struggle I have. It does not define who I am. I'm a son of God. I'm a traditional Catholic. I'm a teacher. I'm a philosophy student. I'm the eldest of six siblings. etc. There would be no reason in the world to start out with "Hey, I'm a guy who struggles with SSA." In fact the only people who know that I struggle with SSA are my immediate family, my  my closest confidants, and perhaps people from my past.
Second, the example of the "Hi, I'm Bob and I struggle with SSA," was an example of some one who might be speaking to a support group and offering help to others who struggle. If you missed that from the context, then perhaps I should have made that clearer. In such a context, it would appropriate to be that open. I'm not saying that one need to publicly announce this to the world.
Third, If I were to meet a practicing homosexual and he shared with me that he does not believe in the faith of the Church because of his homosexuality, I might share how liberating I, as another man struggling with SSA, have found living chastely in union with Christ has been. That is another appropriate situation in which one can be open.
Finally, why on earth are you interpreting my words in the most absurd manner possible? Is it because it's easier to deal with straw men than what I'm actually saying?
Please note: I am not suggesting that people go running around screaming, "I have SSA! I have SSA!
Good.  That makes more sense.
(03-11-2013, 03:52 PM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote: [ -> ]Papist, you're right.

Many people on this thread are motivated by disgust or even hatred.  What does Our Lord tell us to do in these circumstances?

I joined this forum back in 2009 with the intention of never forgetting that the Gospel is at the basis of Catholic tradition.  (You can read one of my first posts here:  http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...sg32549287.)  I've decided to renew my purpose and remind myself and others about the Gospel.

The Institute of Christ the King is particularly strong on this point.  They stress the utter inseparability of truth and charity.

One sure way of driving away all of these satans -- and they are acting like satans (accusers) -- is to invoke the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hear, hear!

Leave it to the ICKSP to set the pace. From the first Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Corinthians: If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.  Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil...
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