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No one's leaving Fisheaters.  And Benno, you're fine.  Don't worry about stepping out of place with yer post.  Too much insight happens here for you to stay away, and besides, people appreciate you, ImpyTerwilliger.  You stay!


Benno, as you tell me about the concept of going through a seminary surrounded by evil sinners, instantly I am reminded of many stories of saints.  Many holy nuns and monks who became saints were often in cloisters and monasteries where they were surrounded by sour persecuting contemporaries.  These holy saints were heroes for enduring the crap they put up with in those institutions.  

It is not too late for you to go to the priesthood.  My favorite priest, Fr. Bruce Brosnahan, entered the seminary when he was in his fifties.  You are older now, and perhaps you are well-suited for the task, now that you know a bit more about the world.  Just consider that as you consider your vocation.  Just take note:  to get through such experiences, you will need to have the faith of a child.
Another thing:

I submit that, having dealt with people in the Church and having been granted by God time to observe them, homosexuals are under a severe threat of narcissism.  In my opinion, one reason why heterosexual adolescents progress beyond adolescence is that society does not separate them into a victim group.  Every single adolescent thinks their temptations are unique, a sisyphian struggle of proportions no one else could possibly conceive.  This narcissism eventually goes away for the straight kids, even the ones who do not successfully marry.  The celibates learn more or less how to accommodate their vocation, if they are straight.  If a person suffers any SSA, they are actively encouraged to maintain this adolescent narcissism throughout life.  

Gay "support" groups, as nice as they sound, perpetuate this.  I have news:  Gay people, you have no idea whether your lives are more or less difficult than anyone else's.  You have no idea whether your struggles are more or less heroic than anyone else's.  This is how the world is created, I can't experience life as you or as anyone except me.  To place special emphasis on your own temptation is pride, a narcissism that is not really Catholic.  I have my struggles,. everyone does, and only those people with the least ordered relationship to their concupiscence seek to publicize it, compare it, join it to the concupiscence of others.

A real Catholic analysis of the temptation to homosexual sex would say that if other people with the same temptation are a near occasion of sin, stay away from them and their meetings.  

Throw all the poo you want.  I know heads are nodding as people consider their own life of sin, and the transition from the hopelessness of adolescence to the order of adulthood, and they see that homosexuals are robbed of this in the modern age.  Even within the Church.  

Get off the modernist train.  Sins don't need "support", they need grace.  Grace comes through the Church.  I know everything in most people's American lives has told them the opposite.  That's why Catholicism is a sign of contradiction.      
I have a habit of thinking of things after I post.  So I post again.

1.Flamboyance is not the only form of narcissism associated with homosexuality.  I think Catholic homosexuals need to be aware that what might manifest itself as flamboyance in someone else can manifest itself as a desire to be noticed, struggling. 

2.I have oft heard it said that a Courage meeting is like AA meeting in a bar.  There is truth here. 
The bluesman in me needs to riff on some notes Burdensome has laid down. A way forward is to stop this "support group" mentality for everything. It's Alinsky at his best, and that's commie-socialism. We should not have any of it from the USCCB to the whatever. It by it's very nature promotes "group think". I'm high on fighting this thing because I'm personally being harassed by my health care providers to join some "health club for oldies" or other. The last thing in the world I want is jazzercizing to old bubble gum tunes. I hated them then and with age it's become anger. This is socializing of America from head start to old age. It's wrong !

phooey,

tim
(03-07-2013, 12:37 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Another thing:

I submit that, having dealt with people in the Church and having been granted by God time to observe them, homosexuals are under a severe threat of narcissism.  In my opinion, one reason why heterosexual adolescents progress beyond adolescence is that society does not separate them into a victim group.  Every single adolescent thinks their temptations are unique, a sisyphian struggle of proportions no one else could possibly conceive.  This narcissism eventually goes away for the straight kids, even the ones who do not successfully marry.  The celibates learn more or less how to accommodate their vocation, if they are straight.  If a person suffers any SSA, they are actively encouraged to maintain this adolescent narcissism throughout life.  
I agree. This is a huge problem among homosexual men.
(03-07-2013, 12:37 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Gay "support" groups, as nice as they sound, perpetuate this.  I have news:  Gay people, you have no idea whether your lives are more or less difficult than anyone else's.  You have no idea whether your struggles are more or less heroic than anyone else's.  This is how the world is created, I can't experience life as you or as anyone except me.  To place special emphasis on your own temptation is pride, a narcissism that is not really Catholic.  I have my struggles,. everyone does, and only those people with the least ordered relationship to their concupiscence seek to publicize it, compare it, join it to the concupiscence of others.
Two points. The first is that if you have no idea whether your struggles are more or less heroic than anyone else's, then you really don't know if men struggling with homosexual temptations have a more difficult time than you you. Hence, you should stop acting like it's the same as every other temptation. You simply don't know.

Second, as you have masterfully pointed out, homosexuality is a particularly dangerous form of concupiscence. It is extremely disordered and is accompanied by multiple more and psychological issues. The man who is seriously tempted to homosexuality is particularly broken, as you have observed. Consequently, I believe that it requires a great deal of support. A good analogy is alcoholism. Because of the various psychological disorders associated with this disease, extra support is necessary.
That being said, I also agree with you that the wrong kind of support can be very dangerous. If the support is aimed at making the homosexual feel special and focus on the self, then it will on make the problem worse. If the support focuses on the curbing of the passions and the focusing on others, then I think it will be useful.
A real Catholic analysis of the temptation to homosexual sex would say that if other people with the same temptation are a near occasion of sin, stay away from them and their meetings.  
(03-07-2013, 12:37 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Throw all the poo you want.  I know heads are nodding as people consider their own life of sin, and the transition from the hopelessness of adolescence to the order of adulthood, and they see that homosexuals are robbed of this in the modern age.  Even within the Church.  

Get off the modernist train.  Sins don't need "support", they need grace.  Grace comes through the Church.  I know everything in most people's American lives has told them the opposite.  That's why Catholicism is a sign of contradiction.      
That's funny. I've never been called a modernist before. In fact, people often get angry with me for arguing that the SSPX serves an important corrective function in the modern Church. Most people think I am a crazy trady.
(03-07-2013, 12:47 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]I have a habit of thinking of things after I post.  So I post again.

1.Flamboyance is not the only form of narcissism associated with homosexuality.  I think Catholic homosexuals need to be aware that what might manifest itself as flamboyance in someone else can manifest itself as a desire to be noticed, struggling. 

2.I have oft heard it said that a Courage meeting is like AA meeting in a bar.  There is truth here. 
1. Can be. Depends on how one approaches the matter. Priests can also fall to the temptation of preaching well merely to be noticed. The Devil can use anything against us.

2. I've never seen what goes on in a Courage meeting, but I've heard the exact opposite. Since neither of us is speaking from first hand knowledge on the matter, all we have to provide is hearsay.
Quote:Two points. The first is that if you have no idea whether your struggles are more or less heroic than anyone else's, then you really don't know if men struggling with homosexual temptations have a more difficult time than you you. Hence, you should stop acting like it's the same as every other temptation. You simply don't know.

Internet sin #3567, making your opponent's point for him without realizing it contradicts your own position.  Congrats.

None of us know what it's like to be in someone else's skin, therefore to single out SSA as being "different" is not right.  We do not have groups of public masturbators presenting themselves for communion wearing pro-masturbation t-shirts.  I think the reason we do not, is because we do not succumb to some social fetish concerning it.  We all should deal with our sins privately, this is the primary reason there is a seal of confession.  To form a "group" around a sin is just to provide anyone who commits that sin with a group whose sin they can compare themselves to and feel secure in.  The "herd mentality" also affects Catholics concerning abortion and contraception, and it ain't good.

Quote:2. I've never seen what goes on in a Courage meeting, but I've heard the exact opposite. Since neither of us is speaking from first hand knowledge on the matter, all we have to provide is hearsay.

Au contraire, mon frere.  I am not discussing "what goes on in" such a meeting.  That's a typical internet trivialization of a good point.  A meeting of homosexuals brings together people for whom each other are the near occasion of sin.  By definition.  I don't need to know what it is said, (and it seems kind of dim on your part, considering the otherwise high level of your posts, to think that I do) to comment on the structure of the thing.  Thank God that, as far as I am aware, no seminary staff ever hit on the idea of bringing all the gay seminarians together in a meeting to seek "courage" together.  How about seeking courage with your confessor or spiritual director THE WAY THE REST OF US DO. (yelling is on purpose).  Our way is Catholic and at least preserves us from our temptations during the actual time we are seeking to repent and cannot promote any public scandal.       
Quote:Most people think I am a crazy traddy.

So I know better.  You're a guy with some modernist ideas and liturgy fetish.  Congrats.  There are many worse things to be.  I'm a notorious sinner in the eyes of God who if he is saved will be only by God's infinite mercy..  We all have problems.   
(03-07-2013, 01:44 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Two points. The first is that if you have no idea whether your struggles are more or less heroic than anyone else's, then you really don't know if men struggling with homosexual temptations have a more difficult time than you you. Hence, you should stop acting like it's the same as every other temptation. You simply don't know.

Internet sin #3567, making your opponent's point for him without realizing it contradicts your own position.  Congrats.

None of us know what it's like to be in someone else's skin, therefore to single out SSA as being "different" is not right.  We do not have groups of public masturbators presenting themselves for communion wearing pro-masturbation t-shirts.  I think the reason we do not, is because we do not succumb to some social fetish concerning it.  We all should deal with our sins privately, this is the primary reason there is a seal of confession.  To form a "group" around a sin is just to provide anyone who commits that sin with a group whose sin they can compare themselves to and feel secure in.  The "herd mentality" also affects Catholics concerning abortion and contraception, and it ain't good.

Quote:2. I've never seen what goes on in a Courage meeting, but I've heard the exact opposite. Since neither of us is speaking from first hand knowledge on the matter, all we have to provide is hearsay.

Au contraire, mon frere.  I am not discussing "what goes on in" such a meeting.  That's a typical internet trivialization of a good point.  A meeting of homosexuals brings together people for whom each other are the near occasion of sin.  By definition.  I don't need to know what it is said, (and it seems kind of dim on your part, considering the otherwise high level of your posts, to think that I do) to comment on the structure of the thing.  Thank God that, as far as I am aware, no seminary staff ever hit on the idea of bringing all the gay seminarians together in a meeting to seek "courage" together.  How about seeking courage with your confessor or spiritual director THE WAY THE REST OF US DO. (yelling is on purpose).  Our way is Catholic and at least preserves us from our temptations during the actual time we are seeking to repent and cannot promote any public scandal.       
Overall, I don't see how seeking help for a problem which is both a sin problem and a psychological problem is un-Catholic. In fact, I think that  person struggling with such an issue should every tool available to overcome the sin. You assume a great deal when you declare that these courage meetings are necessarily occasions of sin. That being said, I agree with you about homosexuality in general. It's not like every other sin. In a lot of ways it's worse.
(03-07-2013, 01:47 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Most people think I am a crazy traddy.

So I know better.  You're a guy with some modernist ideas and liturgy fetish.  Congrats.  There are many worse things to be.  I'm a notorious sinner in the eyes of God who if he is saved will be only by God's infinite mercy..  We all have problems.   
Haha! How funny that you think that I'm a modernist because I think some people need support.  :LOL:
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