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(03-07-2013, 12:18 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]And in your world, why is there no "courage" group for masturbation?  Or rage?  Or theft?  Or violent fantasies?  Or contraception? 

Oh, right, because there is already a support group for all of those temptations which does not single out any sin but instead seeks to help all -


The Catholic Church.




My point.

Exactly.  Those with SSA should forget about the group "courage", grab your guardian angel's hand tightly like Lot did and walk away from it, never to speak of it again.  Don't look back like Lot's wife did.

[Image: p286.jpg]
(03-07-2013, 02:19 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:04 PM)catquilt Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 01:58 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 01:54 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Glad you enjoy it.  I think your attitude is in fact modernist, but you can disagree.  I'm sure we'll both enjoy studying the history of medieval support groups together, and the long history of public gatherings of homosexuals in the history of the Church.  How shall we begin?
Oh, I see. You think that applying any new knowledge makes one a modernist.

There are no new heresies. There are no new sins under the sun. Perhaps we should look at how St Peter Damien dealt with the issue and see if anything is useful...

Okay.  St Peter Damien and more.

Source - Catholic Quotations
http://catholicquotations.blogspot.ca/20...ality.html

Quote: On Homosexuality...
“Just as Saint Basil establishes that those who incur sins [against nature should be subjected not only to a hard penance but a public one, and Pope Siricius prohibits penitents from entering clerical orders, one can clearly deduce that he who corrupts himself with a man through the ignominious squalor of a filthy union does not deserve to exercise ecclesiastical functions, since those who were formerly given to vices … become unfit to administer the Sacraments.”
-Saint Peter Damian, Liber Gomorrhianus [Book of Gomorrha], addressed to Pope Leo IX in the year 1051 (op. cit., cols. 174f)

“This vice strives to destroy the walls of one’s heavenly motherland and rebuild those of devastated Sodom. Indeed, it violates temperance, kills purity, stifles chastity and annihilates virginity ... with the sword of a most infamous union. It infects, stains and pollutes everything; it leaves nothing pure, there is nothing but filth ... This vice expels one from the choir of the ecclesiastical host and obliges one to join the energumens and those who work in league with the devil; it separates the soul from God and links it with the demons. This most pestiferous queen of the Sodomites [which is homosexuality] makes those who obey her tyrannical laws repugnant to men and hateful to God ... It humiliates at church, condemns at court, defiles in secret, dishonors in public, gnaws at the person’s conscience like a worm and burns his flesh like fire. The miserable flesh burns with the fire of lust, the cold intelligence trembles under the rancor of suspicion, and the unfortunate man’s heart is possessed by hellish chaos, and his pains of conscience are as great as the tortures in punishment he will suffer ... Indeed, this scourge destroys the foundations of faith, weakens the force of hope, dissipates the bonds of charity, annihilates justice, undermines fortitude, ... and dulls the edge of prudence.... “What else shall I say? It expels all the forces of virtue from the temple of the human heart and, pulling the door from its hinges, introduces into it all the barbarity of vice ... In effect, the one whom ... this atrocious beast [of homosexuality] has swallowed down its bloody throat is prevented, by the weight of his chains, from practicing all good works and is precipitated into the very abysses of its uttermost wickedness. Thus, as soon as someone has fallen into this chasm of extreme perdition, he is exiled from the heavenly motherland, separated from the Body of Christ, confounded by the authority of the whole Church, condemned by the judgment of all the Holy Fathers, despised by men on earth, and reproved by the society of heavenly citizens. He creates for himself an earth of iron and a sky of bronze ... He cannot be happy while he lives nor have hope when he dies, because in life he is obliged to suffer the ignominy of men’s derision and later, the torment of eternal condemnation”
-Saint Peter Damian (Liber Gomorrhianus, in PL 145, col. 159-178 ).

“Sins against nature, therefore, like the sin of Sodom, are abominable and deserve punishment whenever and wherever they are committed. If all nations committed them, all alike would be held guilty of the same charge in God’s law, for our Maker did not prescribe that we should use each other in this way. In fact, the relationship that we ought to have with God is itself violated when our nature, of which He is Author, is desecrated by perverted lust.....Your punishments are for sins which men commit against themselves, because, although they sin against You, they do wrong in their own souls and their malice is self-betrayed. They corrupt and pervert their own nature, which You made and for which You shaped the rules, either by making wrong use of the things which You allow, or by becoming inflamed with passion to make unnatural use of things which You do not allow” (Rom. 1:26).
-Saint Augustine of Hippo - Bishop, Father, and Doctor of the Church (Confessions, Book III, chap. 8 )

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down! Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic….. So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body….. There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.”
-Saint John Chrysostom - Bishop, Father, and Doctor of the Church (In Epistulam ad Romanos IV, in J. McNeill, op. cit., pp. 89-90)

“Brimstone calls to mind the foul odors of the flesh, as Sacred Scripture itself confirms when it speaks of the rain of fire and brimstone poured by the Lord upon Sodom. He had decided to punish in it the crimes of the flesh, and the very type of punishment emphasized the shame of that crime, since brimstone exhales stench and fire burns. It was, therefore, just that the sodomites, burning with perverse desires that originated from the foul odor of flesh, should perish at the same time by fire and brimstone so that through this just chastisement they might realize the evil perpetrated under the impulse of a perverse desire.”
-Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church (Commento morale a Giobbe, XIV, 23, vol. II, p. 371, Ibid., p. 7)

"(Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones:) They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.
-Saint Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church (In Evangelium Lucae XVII, 29, in J. McNeill, op. cit., p. 95)

“However, they are called passions of ignominy because they are not worthy of being named, according to that passage in Ephesians (5:12): ‘For the things that are done by them in secret, it is a shame even to speak of.’ For if the sins of the flesh are commonly censurable because they lead man to that which is bestial in him, much more so is the sin against nature, by which man debases himself lower than even his animal nature.”
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church (Super Epistulas Sancti Pauli Ad Romanum I, 26, pp. 27f)

"(Saint Bonaventure, speaking in a sermon at the church of Saint Mary of Portiuncula about the miracles that took place simultaneously with the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, narrates this:) “Seventh prodigy: All sodomites—men and women—died all over the earth, as Saint Jerome said in his commentary on the psalm ‘The light was born for the just.’ This made it clear that He was born to reform nature and promote chastity.”
-Saint Bonaventure (Sermon XXI—In Nativitate Domini, in Catolicismo (Campos/Sao Paulo), December 1987, p. 3; F. Bernardei, op. cit., p. 11)

“No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God….. Such passion for undue forms borders on madness. This vice disturbs the intellect, breaks an elevated and generous state of soul, drags great thoughts to petty ones, makes [men] pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything. Furthermore, the will, being agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason, but furor…. Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than any one else, because this is the worst sin that there is.”
-Saint Bernardine of Siena (Predica XXXIX, in Le prediche volgari (Milan: Rizzoli, 1936), pp. 869ff., 915, in F. Bernadei, op. cit., pp. 11f)
 
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I use this post when discussing the matter with others?
"(Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones:) They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.
-Saint Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church (In Evangelium Lucae XVII, 29, in J. McNeill, op. cit., p. 95)

Solution:  Gather them all together in one room and talk about it.  Genius.
(03-07-2013, 02:25 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]"(Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones:) They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.
-Saint Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church (In Evangelium Lucae XVII, 29, in J. McNeill, op. cit., p. 95)

Solution:  Gather them all together in one room and talk about it.  Genius.
Gather them in a room, get them to discuss how to not be a slave to this sin. Since there are probably some people there not enslaved to this sin, then perhaps those people will have some insight.
(03-07-2013, 02:22 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I use this post when discussing the matter with others?

Only if you take heed to the quotes, never speak about SSA ever again, forget about the group "courage" and grab your Rosary beads.  That is your only hope.

(03-07-2013, 02:20 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly.  Those with SSA should forget about the group "courage", grab your guardian angel's hand tightly like Lot did and walk away from it, never to speak of it again.  Don't look back like Lot's wife did.

[Image: p286.jpg]
(03-07-2013, 02:22 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:19 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:04 PM)catquilt Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 01:58 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 01:54 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Glad you enjoy it.  I think your attitude is in fact modernist, but you can disagree.  I'm sure we'll both enjoy studying the history of medieval support groups together, and the long history of public gatherings of homosexuals in the history of the Church.  How shall we begin?
Oh, I see. You think that applying any new knowledge makes one a modernist.

There are no new heresies. There are no new sins under the sun. Perhaps we should look at how St Peter Damien dealt with the issue and see if anything is useful...

Okay.  St Peter Damien and more.

Source - Catholic Quotations
http://catholicquotations.blogspot.ca/20...ality.html


“No sin has greater power over the soul than the one of cursed sodomy, which was always detested by all those who lived according to God….. Such passion for undue forms borders on madness. This vice disturbs the intellect, breaks an elevated and generous state of soul, drags great thoughts to petty ones, makes [men] pusillanimous and irascible, obstinate and hardened, servilely soft and incapable of anything. Furthermore, the will, being agitated by the insatiable drive for pleasure, no longer follows reason, but furor…. Someone who lived practicing the vice of sodomy will suffer more pains in Hell than any one else, because this is the worst sin that there is.”
-Saint Bernardine of Siena (Predica XXXIX, in Le prediche volgari (Milan: Rizzoli, 1936), pp. 869ff., 915, in F. Bernadei, op. cit., pp. 11f)
Good stuff. Thanks for sharing. Do you mind if I use this post when discussing the matter with others?

In 1973, the APA removed homosexuality from the DSM IV(?)...not sure of the number. It was political, i.e. gays engineered the change.

Now, in some states (CA?) it's against the law to counsel someone with the attempt to fix/mitigate their homosexuality.
Quote:Gather them in a room, get them to discuss how to not be a slave to this sin. Since there are probably some people there not enslaved to this sin, then perhaps those people will have some insight.

In the AA model, people are not discussing their problems with bottles of liquor.
(03-07-2013, 02:29 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:25 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]"(Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones:) They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.
-Saint Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church (In Evangelium Lucae XVII, 29, in J. McNeill, op. cit., p. 95)

Solution:  Gather them all together in one room and talk about it.  Genius.
Gather them in a room, get them to discuss how to not be a slave to this sin. Since there are probably some people there not enslaved to this sin, then perhaps those people will have some insight.

Umm ... Pal.  You are discussing it with people that are not enslaved to this sin right now.  We are suggesting that you never speak of it again and ask for help from Our Lord, the Blessed Virgin and your Guardian Angel in secret.  Why would you need to speak to anyone else that may be a temptation to sin for you.  
(03-07-2013, 02:47 PM)mikemac Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:29 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-07-2013, 02:25 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]"(Saint Albert the Great gives four reasons why he considers homosexual acts as the most detestable ones:) They are born from an ardent frenzy; they are disgustingly foul; those who become addicted to them are seldom freed from that vice; they are as contagious as disease, passing quickly from one person to another.
-Saint Albert the Great, Doctor of the Church (In Evangelium Lucae XVII, 29, in J. McNeill, op. cit., p. 95)

Solution:  Gather them all together in one room and talk about it.  Genius.
Gather them in a room, get them to discuss how to not be a slave to this sin. Since there are probably some people there not enslaved to this sin, then perhaps those people will have some insight.

Umm ... Pal.  You are discussing it with people that are not enslaved to this sin right now.  We are suggesting that you never speak of it again and ask for help from Our Lord, the Blessed Virgin and your Guardian Angel in secret.  Why would you need to speak to anyone else that may be a temptation to sin for you.  
Just like quitting alcohol intake and drugs, they should quit homosexual acts cold turkey.
(03-07-2013, 01:44 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Internet sin #3567, making your opponent's point for him without realizing it contradicts your own position.  Congrats.

None of us know what it's like to be in someone else's skin, therefore to single out SSA as being "different" is not right.  We do not have groups of public masturbators presenting themselves for communion wearing pro-masturbation t-shirts.  I think the reason we do not, is because we do not succumb to some social fetish concerning it.  We all should deal with our sins privately, this is the primary reason there is a seal of confession.  To form a "group" around a sin is just to provide anyone who commits that sin with a group whose sin they can compare themselves to and feel secure in.  The "herd mentality" also affects Catholics concerning abortion and contraception, and it ain't good.

1) No Catholic worthy of the name would encouarge homosexuals to wear "pro-homosexual acts t-shirts," either. 

2) The seal of confession is on the priest's side of thing, not the person confessing.

3) The straight masturbater doesn't face a life of no intimacy like homosexuals do. A straight masturbater can get married. And before anyone brings up the example of priests who also don't get to have sex, they have a positive vocation they're called to; it's not the same thing (which isn't to belittle the struggles and sacrifices a priest makes to live up to his promises. But priests don't have aunts asking them "so, when are ya gonna get married?!" either).

4) Groups like Courage aren't meant only or even primarily to "deal with sins" (and I don't think there's any law or any reason why we need, necessarily, to "deal with our sins privately" anyway). They're meant to deal with the whole package of stuff that goes into making a homosexual a homosexual, and the stuff that homosexuals need to deal with that other people don't (all one has to do is look at all the assumptions made about them even here on this forum to know the sort of thing I'm talking about). It's not a matter of "forming a group around a sin" (being a homosexual is not a sin; sexually acting on those impluses is);  it's forming a group because the folks in that group have like minds and like problems to deal with. To me, it makes sense and there's nothing "modernist" about it (it's a major peeve of mine to see that word -- "modernist" -- loosely and usually incorrectly thrown around in trad circles all the time. Sigh!)

5) What's wrong with feeling secure?

(03-07-2013, 01:44 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: [ -> ]Au contraire, mon frere.  I am not discussing "what goes on in" such a meeting.  That's a typical internet trivialization of a good point.  A meeting of homosexuals brings together people for whom each other are the near occasion of sin.  By definition.  I don't need to know what it is said, (and it seems kind of dim on your part, considering the otherwise high level of your posts, to think that I do) to comment on the structure of the thing.  Thank God that, as far as I am aware, no seminary staff ever hit on the idea of bringing all the gay seminarians together in a meeting to seek "courage" together.  How about seeking courage with your confessor or spiritual director THE WAY THE REST OF US DO. (yelling is on purpose).  Our way is Catholic and at least preserves us from our temptations during the actual time we are seeking to repent and cannot promote any public scandal.       

1) The grace of the Sacraments and fellowship/support are not mutually exclusive. No one would balk at a support group for the depressed or the grieving or whatever, whether the participants are Catholic or not. 

2)  While homosexuals, on average, tend to be more promiscuous than straight people, I don't think that every homosexual is attracted to every other homosexual and, so, you can't get two together in a room without it being, necessarily, a near occasion of sin. That's not the case any more than it is when there's a mixed group of straight men and straight women, who often join groups together for all sorts of reasons.

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