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When the news media reported that Pope Francis had declined to move into the Papal apartment, the comentators noted that the last pope to decline to make such a move was Pope Pius X. What other similarities can we find between Pope Frarncis and Pope Pius X?
Check out this "Guess the Pope" thread http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...=3457878.0 for a surprising comparison of the two popes, and comments from fisheaters.

Here's the first post
(03-19-2013, 03:09 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]If you want a PDF copy of this, just email me @ jon dot b dot horton at gmail dot com

http://jonbhorton.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-the-pope/

Guess the Pope
By Jon Horton

Let’s play a game called “Guess the Pope”. This game is simple. I describe characteristics of the pope to be guessed, and you, based on this description, guess which pope I’m describing. Read the description, which has numbers for each citation listed at the end. Scroll down after the description and see if you were correct. Easy? Easy.

* This pope is the son of Italian parents, whose father was an immigrant. (1)

* This pope is associated with a Religious Order. (2)

* This Religious Order with which this pope is associated was founded by a man who styled himself a soldier. (3)

* The founder of this Order gave up dreams of fighting to serve God. (4)

* The Religious Order with which this pope is associated is known for their constant appeal to the poor and downtrodden, despite many great thinkers and educated men in its ranks. (5)

* The members of this Order are known for going all over the world and to some of the worst places to minister, often facing martyrdom. (6)

* The sons of this Order have been some of the best defenders of the Catholic faith and have squashed many heresies, deposing many heretics. (7)

* In more recent times, many members of the Order have been some of the worst enemies of the Catholic faith and have themselves spread heresy and become heretics. (8)

* This Order is described by many as being too Marxist or prone to Communism. (9)

* This pope is known for his pastoral nature. (10)

* This pope is known for his devotion to Mary, even before his pontificate. (11)

* This pope is known for his love of poverty, both in spirit and actuality. (12)

* This pope, as a Cardinal who ran an Archdiocese, once noted in a letter to a priest, “I was poor … I am a perfect beggar”. (13)

* This pope was not the favorite to win the conclave which elected him. (14)

* This pope expressed his desire from the first days of his pontificate to preach and restore the Church to Christ. (15)

* In the first days of his pontificate, his simplicity was noted and found distasteful by many of the “pomp and circumstance” crowd in the curia. (16)

Now let’s guess who I’m describing. (scroll down)
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Am I describing Pope Francis? Keep scrolling.
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No, I’m not describing Pope Francis.
I described Pope St. Pius X.

But as concerns Pope Francis, whose character profile very much fits the descriptions I gave, and probably fooled a few people into thinking it was him, let us give Pope Francis a chance. Many things could be levied at the man that could also be levied at Pope St. Pius X as indicative of how one may or may not be an effective pope. In the end, the Church will not be overcome by Hell. Keep the Faith. Stay with Tradition. Be faithful to the Sacraments. Cling to the Cross. As one of the Stations of the Cross states, in the method according to St. Alphonsus Liguori, nail your heart to the feet of Christ on the Cross that there it may stay.

Habemus Papam!

Here are the description keys:
1) Born Guiseppe Melchiorre Sarto, in modern day Italy. His father was an immigrant to modern day Italy from Poland, who changed his name from Jan Krawiec to Giovanni Sarto upon immigrating, integrating himself into society as an Italian citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X

2) Pope St. Pius X was a Franciscan Tertiary, meaning not a fully professed Religious like the Order of Friars Minor, but, still associated through the Third Order to the Franciscan family.

http://www.franciscan-ofs.net/fviews/pius_x.htm

3) St. Francis initially wanted to be a valiant knight, but God had other plans.

4) Upon a corrective dream sent from God, he no longer pursued the knighthood but devoted himself to service of God.

5) The Franciscans’ entire mantra is poverty. St. Francis often said he was wed to, and loved, Lady Poverty. Men like St. Bonaventure, St. Anthony of Padua, and St. Maximilian Kolbe, amongst others, hold brainiac bonfires to the pitiful, intellectual candles of many men in history and modern times.

6) St. Anthony of Padua, once an Augustinian friar, wanted to join the Franciscans because of the martyrdoms of two Franciscan Brothers by Muslims. In their missionary work the Franciscans have gone to the ends of the earth, and often bled out on it.

7) St. Anthony of Padua is known as “The Hammer of Heretics” and faced off with many heretics and squashed many heresies; Blessed Duns Scotus (late 13th century) argued for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary literal centuries before it was declared infallible dogma by Pope Pius IX, in the encyclical “Ineffabilis Deus” written in the late 19th century. Many other examples are included in the Order’s history.

8 ) Today, many Franciscans have gone off the rails, similar to the Jesuits, and have themselves become spreaders of heresy and indifferentism through a misunderstanding of the Second Vatican Council.

9) G.K. Chesterton once noted, “Communism is the Franciscan movement without the balance of the Church.” Conversely, it seems that through embracing certain errors, Franciscanism has become communism in some regards–having eschewed the balance of the Church. In Latin America, where Jesuit “liberation theology” runs rampant, and in Ireland, as well as other formerly staunch Catholic countries, many Franciscans have regrettably embraced error.

10) Pope St. Pius X was known for pastoral zeal, and had much experience in pastoring.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/piusx.htm

11) Pope St. Pius X was a Marian devotee, and his encyclical “Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum” defined her as the manner through which the restoration of all things in Christ would occur.

12) His last will and testament had the sentence: “I was born poor, I have lived in poverty, and I wish to die poor.” It is colloquially rendered, “I was born poor, I have lived poor, and I wish to die poor.”

http://www.franciscan-ofs.net/fviews/pius_x.htm

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=313

13) Having been Bishop of Mantua, he was made Patriarch of the Archdiocese of Venice and raised to the position of Cardinal. The title Patriarch is a rather rare thing, but being an Archdiocese, he would have been in the position of Archbishop as well despite the title Patriarch. The Patriarch of Venice has certain implications in the Roman Catholic Church as concerns the hierarchy. While there, he wrote, “‘I am so sorry to have to send you such a wretched sum,’ he wrote to a priest in Mantua who had applied to him for money for some charity; ‘I was poor at Mantua, but here I am a perfect beggar. Take what I send in the same spirit, and forgive me.’”

http://www.catholictradition.org/Papacy/piusx-4.htm

14) The frontrunner in the 1903 conclave to elect the Pope was not Cardinal Sarto, who once elected chose the name Pius X.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave,_1903

15) His motto was “To restore all things in Christ”.

16) On the day of his coronation, he wore a simple, gilded-metal pectoral cross, instead of an expensive and fancy one, which horrified his entourage. His response was he had always worn it and had brought no other with him.
Steven M. Avella and Jeffrey Zalar. Sanctity in the Era of Catholic Action: The Case of St. Pius X. U.S. Catholic Historian, Vol. 15, No. 4, Spirituality and Devotionalism (Fall, 1997), pp.57–80

The above comparison is certainly surprising and interesting.  Of course it doesn't make Pope Francis immune from criticism; similarity in external things is not all that is important.
(04-29-2013, 03:08 AM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]Check out this "Guess the Pope" thread http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...=3457878.0 for a surprising comparison of the two popes, and comments from fisheaters.

Here's the first post
(03-19-2013, 03:09 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]If you want a PDF copy of this, just email me @ jon dot b dot horton at gmail dot com

http://jonbhorton.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-the-pope/

Guess the Pope
By Jon Horton

Let’s play a game called “Guess the Pope”. This game is simple. I describe characteristics of the pope to be guessed, and you, based on this description, guess which pope I’m describing. Read the description, which has numbers for each citation listed at the end. Scroll down after the description and see if you were correct. Easy? Easy.

* This pope is the son of Italian parents, whose father was an immigrant. (1)

* This pope is associated with a Religious Order. (2)

* This Religious Order with which this pope is associated was founded by a man who styled himself a soldier. (3)

* The founder of this Order gave up dreams of fighting to serve God. (4)

* The Religious Order with which this pope is associated is known for their constant appeal to the poor and downtrodden, despite many great thinkers and educated men in its ranks. (5)

* The members of this Order are known for going all over the world and to some of the worst places to minister, often facing martyrdom. (6)

* The sons of this Order have been some of the best defenders of the Catholic faith and have squashed many heresies, deposing many heretics. (7)

* In more recent times, many members of the Order have been some of the worst enemies of the Catholic faith and have themselves spread heresy and become heretics. (8)

* This Order is described by many as being too Marxist or prone to Communism. (9)

* This pope is known for his pastoral nature. (10)

* This pope is known for his devotion to Mary, even before his pontificate. (11)

* This pope is known for his love of poverty, both in spirit and actuality. (12)

* This pope, as a Cardinal who ran an Archdiocese, once noted in a letter to a priest, “I was poor … I am a perfect beggar”. (13)

* This pope was not the favorite to win the conclave which elected him. (14)

* This pope expressed his desire from the first days of his pontificate to preach and restore the Church to Christ. (15)

* In the first days of his pontificate, his simplicity was noted and found distasteful by many of the “pomp and circumstance” crowd in the curia. (16)

Now let’s guess who I’m describing. (scroll down)
.
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.
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.
.
.
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.
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.
.
Am I describing Pope Francis? Keep scrolling.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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No, I’m not describing Pope Francis.
I described Pope St. Pius X.

But as concerns Pope Francis, whose character profile very much fits the descriptions I gave, and probably fooled a few people into thinking it was him, let us give Pope Francis a chance. Many things could be levied at the man that could also be levied at Pope St. Pius X as indicative of how one may or may not be an effective pope. In the end, the Church will not be overcome by Hell. Keep the Faith. Stay with Tradition. Be faithful to the Sacraments. Cling to the Cross. As one of the Stations of the Cross states, in the method according to St. Alphonsus Liguori, nail your heart to the feet of Christ on the Cross that there it may stay.

Habemus Papam!

Here are the description keys:
1) Born Guiseppe Melchiorre Sarto, in modern day Italy. His father was an immigrant to modern day Italy from Poland, who changed his name from Jan Krawiec to Giovanni Sarto upon immigrating, integrating himself into society as an Italian citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_X

2) Pope St. Pius X was a Franciscan Tertiary, meaning not a fully professed Religious like the Order of Friars Minor, but, still associated through the Third Order to the Franciscan family.

http://www.franciscan-ofs.net/fviews/pius_x.htm

3) St. Francis initially wanted to be a valiant knight, but God had other plans.

4) Upon a corrective dream sent from God, he no longer pursued the knighthood but devoted himself to service of God.

5) The Franciscans’ entire mantra is poverty. St. Francis often said he was wed to, and loved, Lady Poverty. Men like St. Bonaventure, St. Anthony of Padua, and St. Maximilian Kolbe, amongst others, hold brainiac bonfires to the pitiful, intellectual candles of many men in history and modern times.

6) St. Anthony of Padua, once an Augustinian friar, wanted to join the Franciscans because of the martyrdoms of two Franciscan Brothers by Muslims. In their missionary work the Franciscans have gone to the ends of the earth, and often bled out on it.

7) St. Anthony of Padua is known as “The Hammer of Heretics” and faced off with many heretics and squashed many heresies; Blessed Duns Scotus (late 13th century) argued for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary literal centuries before it was declared infallible dogma by Pope Pius IX, in the encyclical “Ineffabilis Deus” written in the late 19th century. Many other examples are included in the Order’s history.

8 ) Today, many Franciscans have gone off the rails, similar to the Jesuits, and have themselves become spreaders of heresy and indifferentism through a misunderstanding of the Second Vatican Council.

9) G.K. Chesterton once noted, “Communism is the Franciscan movement without the balance of the Church.” Conversely, it seems that through embracing certain errors, Franciscanism has become communism in some regards–having eschewed the balance of the Church. In Latin America, where Jesuit “liberation theology” runs rampant, and in Ireland, as well as other formerly staunch Catholic countries, many Franciscans have regrettably embraced error.

10) Pope St. Pius X was known for pastoral zeal, and had much experience in pastoring.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/mary/piusx.htm

11) Pope St. Pius X was a Marian devotee, and his encyclical “Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum” defined her as the manner through which the restoration of all things in Christ would occur.

12) His last will and testament had the sentence: “I was born poor, I have lived in poverty, and I wish to die poor.” It is colloquially rendered, “I was born poor, I have lived poor, and I wish to die poor.”

http://www.franciscan-ofs.net/fviews/pius_x.htm

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=313

13) Having been Bishop of Mantua, he was made Patriarch of the Archdiocese of Venice and raised to the position of Cardinal. The title Patriarch is a rather rare thing, but being an Archdiocese, he would have been in the position of Archbishop as well despite the title Patriarch. The Patriarch of Venice has certain implications in the Roman Catholic Church as concerns the hierarchy. While there, he wrote, “‘I am so sorry to have to send you such a wretched sum,’ he wrote to a priest in Mantua who had applied to him for money for some charity; ‘I was poor at Mantua, but here I am a perfect beggar. Take what I send in the same spirit, and forgive me.’”

http://www.catholictradition.org/Papacy/piusx-4.htm

14) The frontrunner in the 1903 conclave to elect the Pope was not Cardinal Sarto, who once elected chose the name Pius X.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave,_1903

15) His motto was “To restore all things in Christ”.

16) On the day of his coronation, he wore a simple, gilded-metal pectoral cross, instead of an expensive and fancy one, which horrified his entourage. His response was he had always worn it and had brought no other with him.
Steven M. Avella and Jeffrey Zalar. Sanctity in the Era of Catholic Action: The Case of St. Pius X. U.S. Catholic Historian, Vol. 15, No. 4, Spirituality and Devotionalism (Fall, 1997), pp.57–80

The above comparison is certainly surprising and interesting.  Of course it doesn't make Pope Francis immune from criticism; similarity in external things is not all that is important.
Maybe in the future there will be a Society of Pope St Francis I.
(04-29-2013, 01:30 AM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]When the news media reported that Pope Francis had declined to move into the Papal apartment, the comentators noted that the last pope to decline to make such a move was Pope Pius X. What other similarities can we find between Pope Frarncis and Pope Pius X?


Pope St. Pius X washed mens' feet on Holy Thursday and condemned novelty; and Pope Francis washed girls' feet on Holy Thursday and insinuated the novelty that women may hope to become priestesses. O wait! that's a difference! How are they the same? Um, they both washed feet on Holy Thursday.
Another pope known for his love of the poor was Pope St Pius V
:) :) :)

Against his own wishes, Michael was elected Pope in 1566. Taking the name of Pius V, the new Pope set an example for the faithful through acts of humility and charity. He visited the sick, washed the feet of the poor and suffering, and adopted a stripped-down lifestyle in accordance with his Dominican formation.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/c...-april-30/
I'm sure there are some comparisons available aside from my piece. Maybe they would help or not.

When I wrote it, it was written in a tongue in cheek manner meant to capitalize on the emotion of the moment for a sort of "check your rage and make sure you're really looking at the man and not just something to bash him with" concept. Obviously, in an historical context, the comparison fails as the Franciscans were much more orthodox in the days of Pope St. Pius X.

It has been my consensus, along with those I know personally who pay attention to such things, as well as a few posters on here that thus far Pope Francis is a bit of a conundrum. I think Jame02 really hits the nail on the head in his posts, which are perplexed by Pope Francis' written and spoken orthodoxy whilst the liturgical actions and certain decisions would lead to heterodox conclusions, arriving at the "wait and see" conclusion.

The media and immediate ability to dig up quarry loads of dirt on a man, whether in context or not, might have buried many Popes of the past in similar screaming and gnashing of teeth as we see today. None are perfect and comments and actions of people in the moment might be a mistake or misspoken, misunderstood, etc.

I can't imagine the froth of 1st Century A.D. Palestinian Twitter: @Jesus Pope Peter? Dude denied you 3 times, and he can't speak in public! #Whatareyouthinking?
@PaulTheApostle Opposed him to his face! #PopePeter is wrong!

All in all, it boils down to what we do. I can't think of a situation in which particular judgement would rest on a scenario wherein we see the following exchange:

Our Blessed Lord: OK, so, as we have come to the conclusion of this, it is obvious you are going to hell
Soul: But Lord, I wrote a scathing defense of my position using the Scripture and Tradition
Our Blessed Lord: Yeah, so did the Pharisees and it didn't matter because they were ultimately wrong in application. My command was to save your soul, not play prosecutor against another. But you're right, it was a A+ paper! Welcome to heaven.

Whether the Pope be horrible or great, we can only stay with the Sacraments and work out our salvation in fear and trembling, running the race to obtain the victor's crown.
If you wish to read a really good bio of St. Pius X see this link for a FREE ebook and get a glimpse at what true humility is:

http://books.google.com/books?id=AmQJAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq=life+of+pius+x+benziger+bros&source=bl&ots=EI1AprVC9y&sig=RZoOqutBqa2tQOk8jWWiszhu_n8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-Ot-UYHWL8eu4AOJ7YCYDQ&ved=0CGsQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=life%20of%20pius%20x%20benziger%20bros&f=false

Francis of today's Rome is no match. Sorry. He couldn't fill St. Pius X's shoes... Oh, yeah, he won't wear the red shoes!
It is error to think he is filling the shoes of Pius X, who also reduced a lot of pomp in the papal ceremonies. 

He is filling the chair of St. Peter, as did Pope St. Pius X.

(04-29-2013, 06:26 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]It is error to think he is filling the shoes of Pius X...

You could stop right there.

The very concept of filling shoes itself is error. He occupies the Chair of St. Peter, not the shoes.

Those who attempt wearing another's shoes get fungus.
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