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Sometimes it seems like the heart of Catholic (especially traddy) debate and discussion is a forceful drive towards total conformity. When it's about dogma that's expected and encouraged, because we should all agree about the truth of fundamental Church teachings - but what about other things, where opinions can proliferate and people can observe different practices? Why does that seem to set off alarm bells with some Catholics, and what is the danger there? Everything can't be reduced to dogmatic warfare, and I think people who treat their religious lives as one big battle against other Catholics/Christians (and not against evil and their own sinful natures) are really "missing the point" somehow.

Can a Catholic forum, especially a traditional Catholic forum, ever be a place where a variety of ideas get tolerated and celebrated? Or must it always become a place where processes of "weeding out" differences, and setting standards by which to judge the Catholicity of others, replace broader theological debate?
Go to a neoCatholic forum like CAF and try discussing the good things about the SSPX.  You'll get banned within a few minutes.  What you observe is on many forums.

This is a trad catholic forum.  Actually there are a lot of neoCatholics here.  We just had one state that ALL jews are saved, even the ones who died unbaptized.  He isn't banned.  So I think you get a lot of opinions here.
To understand the latitude of our freedom we must know its boundaries.

Anything definitely within those boundaries, but differing in personal position, should and must be tolerated unless overruled by the Church.

That being understood, we then can engage in celebration of our freedom in Christ.

If it is the boundaries which are in question, I think discussion and debate is necessary.

It all seems very Jewish in a sense to me.

(05-12-2013, 10:57 AM)loggats Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes it seems like the heart of Catholic (especially traddy) debate and discussion is a forceful drive towards total conformity. When it's about dogma that's expected and encouraged, because we should all agree about the truth of fundamental Church teachings - but what about other things, where opinions can proliferate and people can observe different practices? Why does that seem to set off alarm bells with some Catholics, and what is the danger there? Everything can't be reduced to dogmatic warfare, and I think people who treat their religious lives as one big battle against other Catholics/Christians (and not against evil and their own sinful natures) are really "missing the point" somehow.

Can a Catholic forum, especially a traditional Catholic forum, ever be a place where a variety of ideas get tolerated and celebrated? Or must it always become a place where processes of "weeding out" differences, and setting standards by which to judge the Catholicity of others, replace broader theological debate?

This forum has plenty of ideas and we do celebrate differences. It's just not as apparent because we only have a small number of regular posters (regular as in at least 1-3 posts per day).

But as for the fact that we don't celebrate the 'other things where opinions can proliferate' I have two ideas:

1) Forums by their nature allow, encourage and are a vehicle for getting your ideas across. It's almost always about debating something. We're going to always polarize an issue somehow. Not necessarily a bad thing.
2) This forum is for a group of people in the Church who have been persecuted (somewhat) either individually or generally for their adherence to Catholicism in all it's truth and beauty. I think it's unlikely that we'll not be the kind of people who want to be dogmatic about things and discussing the errors of modernist tendencies etc. Before we can celebrate differences we need to understand that we're the same in some core areas, no? That's where the problem lies. Currently even the core areas seem to be up for debate in the modern Church. We're just reacting against it.

Just my two cents before I go to Mass! Woohoo!
I see the tension as a byproduct of the last fifty years. Most trads were robbed of their tradition and are at the mercy of their priests and their consciences, and in times like these of extreme tension people tend to see only in black and white. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that if this were a different time the so called neos and the so called trads would be pretty much on the same page of the hymnal.

Because they were robbed they have no support system. That was removed by the robbers and social engineers. We are all on our own now.  There is no Catholic Parish where support was every where, and folks that were weak, or those tending toward a not needed rigorism, could be talked to by friends in a charitable friendly way. Catholic society is gone, gone, gone.

So in a time when everyone's spiritual nerves have been stretched to their ends something has to give. Some retreat into yes or no, and right or wrong, and can no longer see gray. Others have settled for as much as they can withstand past the Creed and hold their position until help arrives. The real problem is their is no day to day where those things which we can disagree about are discussed and everyone understands that we are allowed to disagree, and not go crazy.

In this age it requires a quick survey of every Father and Doctor disregarding their writings are nuanced and need to be taught from competent Authority but instead are cut and pasted as if every layman is a theologian. This is where the resentment begins for all sides. I personally have become to see this as something the Devil encourages because no matter who is right and who is wrong, the resentment grows, festering an opportunity for hatred.

Trads say why don't you obey, and the neos say who are you to say obey! This will not end. Argument has never won the day except in debate clubs. Pray the rosary for the Pope and that he will with all the Bishops Consecrate Russia as asked nearly 100 years ago. We are very close to running out of time.

tim
Thanks for sharing your views guys.

Tim, what you said struck me. So you think this is all a reaction to the disintegration of Catholic/Christian society (as a somewhat monolithic, Western culture) since the (late) 50s? I want to agree but exploring it in practice soon involves all kinds of conspiracy theory stuff that make me uncomfortable - just because it reduces complex issues to a pat answer that doesn't really answer anything at all. The Church has certainly changed and the world is constantly changing, but is the Catholic response directly related to all of this? And if we're living in a post-Christian culture, can we talk about a historical "breaking point"?
I see this as a mutli-pronged attack of preternatural origin. It is so complex and so diabolical we puny humans have not the mind to unravel it. Our response in this more than ever fallen and depraved state is to turn to the Lord with a contrite heart and beg for help. It seems to me all the arrows point to it. This has to be the Great Apostasy St. Paul spoke of in his epistle. Sister Faustina said Jesus will remove His Mercy at some time in the future. He has. Our Lady at Fatima's warnings and request has been ignored. We are in the eleventh hour and the annihilation may soon begin.

This will not go on forever. The Lord will not be mocked and if Our Lady's request is not done, He will punish the World. There will be no post-modern civilization. There will be a re-building like after Rome. If our Lady's request is met, we'll see all nations conform to The Lord's and her plan for peace. The current NWO will die, one way or the other.

I came in on this note long ago when I returned to Faith, and I see no reason to think otherwise.

tim
Quote:  I want to agree but exploring it in practice soon involves all kinds of conspiracy theory stuff that make me uncomfortable

Go to youtube.  You can find videos from former Communists.  Watch Yuri Bezmenov (former KGB) and Bella Dodd (former cell leader in the USA).  No reason to doubt that there was a communist conspiracy to infiltrate the Church.
And Masons infiltrated too. Fr. Luigi Villa had published a list of over a hundred of them. The periodical SiSiNoNo another dozen. Roberto Calvi another hundred plus, and that list landed on JPII's desk. Then Fr. Greely of the Sun-Times, and Brady of RCF have tons on the Lavender Mafia. The web is impenetrable.

tim
(05-12-2013, 10:57 AM)loggats Wrote: [ -> ]Sometimes it seems like the heart of Catholic (especially traddy) debate and discussion is a forceful drive towards total conformity.

You just don't like it when people disagree with you.
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