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Good on him for affirming a traditional understanding of natural law, which, I think, will be hugely important in the next decades. I actually went on an atheist forum once to raise the topic of natural law, and you'd be surprised to see how many ways they have of distorting and perverting even this reality which should bind people of all beliefs together in some sense of at least trying to follow the first precept of doing good and avoiding evil.  For example, they see evils as goods etc, say that there is no objective standards of good/evil, it's all personal/ circumstantial etc.

The Pope just didn't go far enough, or maybe his theological formation is a bit poisoned by modern nonsense - but he was trying to affirm a traditional understanding that is going to be an increasingly important issue as the world begins celebrating, upholding and even legalizing and things that are contrary even to the natural law.

What scares me most about where the world is heading is that human nature itself seems to be under diabolical attack. When we get to the point where even common understandings of what realities like 'human', 'good' and 'evil' have been perverted from truth/reality, it's open slather - anything will go, in a totally unprecedented way.

I think Benedict and this Pope both know that there's some serious stuff about to happen down here. Benedict left the job to someone he hoped would be vetter equipped physically to deal with it, and this Pope is trying to re-affirm some essential truths that people can look to when things go haywire.
Typos there but my mobile won't let me modify it.
(05-23-2013, 03:05 AM)Benno Wrote: [ -> ]Good on him for affirming a traditional understanding of natural law, which, I think, will be hugely important in the next decades. I actually went on an atheist forum once to raise the topic of natural law, and you'd be surprised to see how many ways they have of distorting and perverting even this reality which should bind people of all beliefs together in some sense of at least trying to follow the first precept of doing good and avoiding evil.  For example, they see evils as goods etc, say that there is no objective standards of good/evil, it's all personal/ circumstantial etc.

The Pope just didn't go far enough, or maybe his theological formation is a bit poisoned by modern nonsense - but he was trying to affirm a traditional understanding that is going to be an increasingly important issue as the world begins celebrating, upholding and even legalizing and things that are contrary even to the natural law.

What scares me most about where the world is heading is that human nature itself seems to be under diabolical attack. When we get to the point where even common understandings of what realities like 'human', 'good' and 'evil' have been perverted from truth/reality, it's open slather - anything will go, in a totally unprecedented way.

I think Benedict and this Pope both know that there's some serious stuff about to happen down here. Benedict left the job to someone he hoped would be vetter equipped physically to deal with it, and this Pope is trying to re-affirm some essential truths that people can look to when things go haywire.

Good post Benno.  I pretty much see it the same way.

You are spot on about the diabolical attack we are experiencing.
(05-22-2013, 10:55 PM)St. Drogo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-22-2013, 10:27 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Your thread title is a lie. Atheists are redeemed; they are not necessarily saved. Don't accuse His Holiness of "heresy," especially if, no offense intended, you don't know what you're talking about.

I agree. I think you should change the title as it is scandalous in the proper sense.

I thought about it, but then figured that it'd get people to read this thread and maybe learn something about the difference between redemption and salvation. I also like the idea of folks learning how the way some trads "jump the gun" and seem to be LOOKING for "heresy" or something to criticize the Pope over is dangerous (not to mention disgusting and un-Catholic) and can make that trad look foolish. Maybe some people will think twice before publicly accusing His Holiness of such a crime if they know they might well be publicly corrected and shown up to be wrong.

I really hate that phenomenon in the trad world... I'd bet you $20 bucks that on a certain other forum (no, not that one; the other one) some folks are just relllllllllllllishing the idea of the Pope being wrong -- gloating over it, loving every second of it -- not knowing they're just ignorant.

There is simply nothing wrong whatsoever in what the Pope said. There's nothing ambiguous about it, nothing misleading, nothing "modernist." He knew exactly what he was saying and meant what he said. That some uneducated people want to twist things and make it seem like "Wow, the Pope's saying atheists are saved!" is their own damned fault, completely ridiculous to anyone with a brain, and absolutely nothing new. The media have been twisting Catholic teaching and our Popes' words for ever.
There needs to be one point of clarification.

Someone who is not in the state of grace, with supernatural faith, cannot perform meritorious good acts.  Columba Marmion is very clear about this in his works.

On the other hand, any person can do naturally good works, which may merit some kind of earthly reward from God, including certain graces that will bring that person to the Faith.

I know from experience that many non-Christians are more naturally virtuous than I am.
Well this has turned out well. Early AM I came and saw the headline and I was ready to tromp all over this but, I was late and it sounds like all the correct notes have been played. tatatita

tim
I thought he was crystal clear. The key is to shut yer mouth and open your ears. He actually had something to teach us. It's a great Gospel passage for just such an occasion.
(05-22-2013, 10:27 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Your thread title is a lie. Atheists are redeemed; they are not necessarily saved. Don't accuse His Holiness of "heresy," especially if, no offense intended, you don't know what you're talking about.

I agree!!!!  Calling the Vicar of Christ a heretic is very serious. God gives every soul on earth the means to come to salvation. There is no predestination.  We all have differing means.  All souls have indeed been redeemed but not necessarily saved because that depends on our cooperation with what graces are given to us.
(05-23-2013, 05:57 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: [ -> ]There needs to be one point of clarification.

Someone who is not in the state of grace, with supernatural faith, cannot perform meritorious good acts.  Columba Marmion is very clear about this in his works.

On the other hand, any person can do naturally good works, which may merit some kind of earthly reward from God, including certain graces that will bring that person to the Faith.

I know from experience that many non-Christians are more naturally virtuous than I am.

Good points.  Do you mind if I blatantly steal that from you? 
(05-23-2013, 11:01 AM)Sant Anselmo Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-23-2013, 05:57 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: [ -> ]There needs to be one point of clarification.

Someone who is not in the state of grace, with supernatural faith, cannot perform meritorious good acts.  Columba Marmion is very clear about this in his works.

On the other hand, any person can do naturally good works, which may merit some kind of earthly reward from God, including certain graces that will bring that person to the Faith.

I know from experience that many non-Christians are more naturally virtuous than I am.

Good points.  Do you mind if I blatantly steal that from you?

Please do!  I stole it from Bl. Columba Marmion, who stole it from Catholic teaching.  LOL
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