FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Pope says atheists are saved
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5
(05-22-2013, 11:42 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: [ -> ]The pope didn't say athiests are saved. What he did say does boggle my easily boggled mind however. They can be easily twisted in exactly the way they have been. And what, do we really need to have the message that "hey athiests can do good things" Huh? As if the great crisis of today is that Catholics don't think highly enough of non-catholics. Good grief, the crisis is religious indifferentism. How does our pope and all the hierarchy not see this?

The crisis continues..

And he has to know the confusion that he has caused. Let's just see how long it takes for him to clarify his remarks.
I still believe not only is faith necessary for salvation, but explicit faith in Jesus Christ. Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus, agnostics, New Agers or whoever else can do good on the natural level but without explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the life of grace in their souls they cannot be saved, period, close the book. It's nonsensical to say that there wil be atheists or Buddhists in Heaven. If someone dies without the life of the Holy Trinity in their souls and without explicit faith in Christ they will end up in hell, it's that simple. Can God give a naurally good atheist on his deathbed the opportunity unknown to outside observers the grace to make an explicit act of faith and be saved? Yes, but without that they will not go to Heaven. Stuff like this just drops the bottom out of everything, makes the Church, her traditions, the sacraments etc. just meaningless. With Christ bigger than the Church and bigger than all the world religions there is only one thing left for the Church----to become a sentimental religious version of UNICEF and the United Nations. Has this not already happened in many places? Lets be honest here...

Outside of trad chapels I have never once ever heard about the necessity for Confession, the necessity of faith, the necessity of the sacraments or even how baptism literally sets us apart and makes us adopted sons of God in ways that unbelievers and the unbaptized are not. This is huge, this notion that a baptized Christian is a child of God on a supernatural level, having the actual life of God in his soul while unbelievers and the unbaptized are not, they are only children of God on the level of nature---fallen nature at that.  The distinction between grace and nature, natural and supernatural have been almost totally erased and blurred these days.  What is lacking in the Church today is clarity, just simple clarity in the way things are said. Pope Francis, whatever he may or may not have meant by what he said, could have and should have chosen his words in a way that there was no room or mincing and fudging and nuancing into oblivion. What has happened since Vatican II is a revolution more than anything else in the way things are said.  Clarity has gone out the window.
Semper Idem,
If others twist the meaning of the pope's words to corrupt ends, the pope does not have to clarify anything. Our Lord's own words were twisted, and often were very mysterious themselves.

The only thing this shows is how little Catholics know about their faith, and how little the secular world knows about the Catholic faith. But that is not a consequence of his words; it is a the cause of the confusion.

As it is, even on this beloved forum, the comment has had many people explain the meaning of his words. Maybe this is what the Pope intended? He has created a situation in which we get to explain to people what the Catholic Church teaches on these issues.
(05-24-2013, 02:26 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]Semper Idem,
If others twist the meaning of the pope's words to corrupt ends, the pope does not have to clarify anything. Our Lord's own words were twisted, and often were very mysterious themselves.

The only thing this shows is how little Catholics know about their faith, and how little the secular world knows about the Catholic faith. But that is not a consequence of his words; it is a the cause of the confusion.

As it is, even on this beloved forum, the comment has had many people explain the meaning of his words. Maybe this is what the Pope intended? He has created a situation in which we get to explain to people what the Catholic Church teaches on these issues.

Yes, God forbid the man dressed in white should actually do his job and proclaim in no uncertain terms the Faith himself. I can't wait to see his performance at the synagogue in Rome or during his first visit to a muzzie mosque. I'm sure he'll stand up (or bow down) and inform them that they must covert - or will he let others do his job and "explain to people what the Catholic Church teaches."
(05-24-2013, 02:26 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]Semper Idem,
If others twist the meaning of the pope's words to corrupt ends, the pope does not have to clarify anything. Our Lord's own words were twisted, and often were very mysterious themselves.

The only thing this shows is how little Catholics know about their faith, and how little the secular world knows about the Catholic faith. But that is not a consequence of his words; it is a the cause of the confusion.

As it is, even on this beloved forum, the comment has had many people explain the meaning of his words. Maybe this is what the Pope intended? He has created a situation in which we get to explain to people what the Catholic Church teaches on these issues.

Perhaps you are correct, in that this is a blessing in disguise.  Regardless, I cannot help but wish that the Holy Father would take a bit more care with his words.  Pope Benedict had a few of these sorts of things relatively early on in his pontificate.  After that, he stopped giving off the cuff comments pretty much altogether.  I think it takes a while for a Pope in today's world to come to the realization that ever little thing they say and do will be dissected to the smallest detail possible for hidden meaning and connotation.  Once Pope Francis comes to that realization, or someone that he trusts carefully explains it to him, I think things will settle down a bit. 
The Pope trying to encourage people to do good! WOW!

Does it obviate the need for the Church? Chase people from the Church? Well, maybe if they visit one of the parishes with terrible kitschy music, probably. LOL

But Pope Francis' words may help some people who "hate" the Church for its visible facade (which is notably ugly: paedos, rapists, thieves, liars, cover-ups, all hidden under increasingly-ugly trappings). Atheists, or even Prots, don't really know what they claim to hate. What many of them really hate is the apparent lack of justice for the criminal bishops and priests; the hypocrisy of it all. But we hate that, as well.. Regardless, it can be really hard to see God in the priests while the priests are raping the young men and having orgies. Can you blame a decent person for saying "no thank you" before they even know what we REALLY believe?

(We need one of those, "Catholic Church: What the world thinks we do (rape kids); What the Protestants think we do (worship statues); What God thinks we do (facepalm? LOL) ... What WE think we do (beautiful Mass); What we really do (post on FE)" ROFL )
Semper Idem,
So basically, you don't like the Pope, and expect him to be an altogether evil fellow, and you find this latest comment of the Pope's convenient for Pope-bashing purposes. Whatever. Semper Idem indeed.

St. Anselm,
You know, I get your point, and I think it is a valid one. But I also suspect we need something that is vocally different from the popes that in the recent past have guarded their words, had them watered down, expressed in abstract philosophical terms, etc. until no one is listening anymore anyway. I think it's time we had a pope that stirred up some shit, pardon my lingo. Notice how former Pope Benedict made a remark early in his pontificate about Islam, a very controversial remark concerning violence, and it kicked up a lot of controversy, and then he went all hush-hush, and remained abstract, and all was about the hermeneutic of the hermeneutic of the hermeneutic. And I for one, loved Pope Benedict and feel sorry for him, more than anything else, and I was not  at all happy when I saw who the cardinals chose. But I give him a chance, knowing that traditionally, Catholics never spent this much time parsing everything a pope said or did, never even knew anything popes said or did. That is traditional: just do it. But I have been pleased so far with how this Pope has spoken. More about the devil, and the poor, and confessing Our Lord. I say, so far so good, even this 'loose' style of speaking, which I admit poses certain risks.
(05-24-2013, 09:36 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]Semper Idem,
So basically, you don't like the Pope, and expect him to be an altogether evil fellow, and you find this latest comment of the Pope's convenient for Pope-bashing purposes. Whatever. Semper Idem indeed.

St. Anselm,
You know, I get your point, and I think it is a valid one. But I also suspect we need something that is vocally different from the popes that in the recent past have guarded their words, had them watered down, expressed in abstract philosophical terms, etc. until no one is listening anymore anyway. I think it's time we had a pope that stirred up some sh**, pardon my lingo. Notice how former Pope Benedict made a remark early in his pontificate about Islam, a very controversial remark concerning violence, and it kicked up a lot of controversy, and then he went all hush-hush, and remained abstract, and all was about the hermeneutic of the hermeneutic of the hermeneutic. And I for one, loved Pope Benedict and feel sorry for him, more than anything else, and I was not  at all happy when I saw who the cardinals chose. But I give him a chance, knowing that traditionally, Catholics never spent this much time parsing everything a pope said or did, never even knew anything popes said or did. That is traditional: just do it. But I have been pleased so far with how this Pope has spoken. More about the devil, and the poor, and confessing Our Lord. I say, so far so good, even this 'loose' style of speaking, which I admit poses certain risks.

This.
Quote: "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

I take it he is saying we'll "meet" with the atheists to do good together.  At first I thought he meant meet in heaven.  Doesn't look heretical to me, and I'm a Feeneyite.  Obviously the Catholic Faith is that an atheist can't get to heaven.  You must have explicit Faith in Jesus, including the Incarnation and Trinity, in order to be saved.
Quote: I remember jp2 teaching Universal Salvation without ever coming right out and say ing it.
Actually JP II came out of the closet on that one.  As I documented, he wrote that every person, without exception, has been predestined to union with the Father.  That is a materially heretical statement.  Especially since Catholic terminology with regards to predestination is very precise due to the centuries of heated debate over the topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5