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This non-celebration celebration thing, which everyone hopes will foster mutual respect and unity, is beginning to resemble the same arguments had over the Al Smith Dinner, Barack Obama and Cardinal Dolan. What was accomplished there, other than Obama's re-election with the help of the Catholic vote?
(06-28-2013, 07:56 AM)lauermar Wrote: [ -> ]For crying out loud. What's next? Celebrate the anniversary of the beginning of Arianism? Jansenism? I'm beginning to think that Fr. Hesse is right.

I am an admirer of Fr. Hesse (RIP) and what he had to say. I think many of his assessment's were spot on.
There's no way that the pope is going to convert a Protestant leader to Catholicism, and no way is a Protestant leader going to convert a pope to Protestantism. 

I don't know why people expect Pope Francis to meet this guy and start telling him that he's a heretic destined for Hell, especially when many of American Protestants basically do just that to us.
From Wikipedia, concerning the Joint Declaration on Justification. Not a great source of info, but an interesting tidbit:

"The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is a document created, and agreed to, by the Catholic Church's Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation in 1999, as a result of extensive ecumenical dialogue. It states that the churches now share "a common understanding of our justification by God's grace through faith in Christ." To the parties involved, this essentially resolves the conflict over the nature of justification which was at the root of the Protestant Reformation.

The Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity and the Lutheran World Federation acknowledged that the excommunications relating to the doctrine of justification set forth by the Council of Trent do not apply to the teachings of the Lutheran churches set forth in the text; likewise, the churches acknowledged that the condemnations set forth in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the Catholic teachings on justification set forth in the document. Confessional Lutherans, such as the International Lutheran Council and the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference, reject the Declaration. Many Catholics also see it as a flawed document and out of line with the Council of Trent; since it is not a magisterial document, Catholics are, under Catholic theology, free to reject it as incompatible with the Tridentine Council.  On July 18, 2006, members of the World Methodist Council, meeting in Seoul, South Korea, voted unanimously to adopt the document."

Thank heavens this is not magisterial. Especially if they had added the word "alone" after faith in Christ.
It makes sense that the Pope would meet with leaders, because he is a leader. Each level meets with their respective level. Lay people debate with lay people, etc. And it has done good. Not a few Protestants have converted. And the relations with the Orthodox are a lot better. Much has to be done, but to say that these types of meetings are a waste of time is just wrong, and hyperbolic.

Someone's thoughts:

http://catholicozarks.blogspot.com/2012/...ethod.html
(06-28-2013, 11:53 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Part of the healing of the Reformation is both sides admitting that there were actors who were wrong. Who knows what the tone of 2017 will be, but 1517 was a period of division and abuse in the Catholic Church. The Church maintained the purity of doctrine and handed on that, but many clerics, and the Popes themselves, were scandals. Perhaps it can be an occasion for each side give their mea cuplas, forgiveness to each, a regret for things getting out of hand, and a strong pull toward the one true Church. It is a great thing to be reconciled to one's brother, and there is not true glory in standing aloof and not willing to hear him. Hopefully, there will be no glorification of those tragic events in the 16th century, but a sober reflection on what has become of Christian unity, and where we can go from here. These articles are four years out in front. We really know nothing about 2017, or if it will even be a "celebration". So any cheering or booing really needs to be withheld, since we know essentially nothing. As for the visit, I find it encouraging. The more there is dialog between the Pope as representative of the Church and with other denominational leaders, the more gain there is to a reconciliation. The Reformation is a sticking point in areas like Germany, Switzerland, and England, because those were the hotbeds. And it probably will take a long time to heal those wounds. But healing it must be. And I think the start of that is prayer and penance. Catholics should request forgiveness of the Lord, that we may be granted the gift of reconciliation with our brothers. And, finally, conversion starts with oneself. Protestants will be drawn to the Church when they know that we are intent on self-conversion and fidelity to Christ, because they'll see Christ within us.

Scrip, while I admire your optimistic stance on things, I have to disagree with some of your assessment's. How many times does the Church have to apologize? I thought JPII took care of those "missteps" of the Church when he apologized for just about everything. Did that not count? We hear that Protestants are not formal heretics, but material heretics (and I assent to the Church's teaching on this), because they were not part of the original rebellion. Well, does that same rule not apply to the Church? "We" were not "there" when these "naughty things" took place.

And unity? We have unity within the Church. The Church does not need the Protestants or the Orthodox for the Church to be unified. It exists already.

This dialogue means nothing if they are not asked to convert to the Church. How many meetings does it take to get that point across? They are not our brothers until they have the Catholic Church as their mother and the Roman pontiff as their father. This has always been the teaching of the Church. If they are waiting for us to "appear to be perfect", then they will have a long wait (and risk losing their souls) by not applying that same rule to themselves. This is about truth, not just about every single one of us putting on Christ. There have always been sinners in the Church, and it never stopped many heretics from returning to the fold. What brought them back is recognizing the errors of their position. How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!
(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2013, 11:53 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Part of the healing of the Reformation is both sides admitting that there were actors who were wrong. Who knows what the tone of 2017 will be, but 1517 was a period of division and abuse in the Catholic Church. The Church maintained the purity of doctrine and handed on that, but many clerics, and the Popes themselves, were scandals. Perhaps it can be an occasion for each side give their mea cuplas, forgiveness to each, a regret for things getting out of hand, and a strong pull toward the one true Church. It is a great thing to be reconciled to one's brother, and there is not true glory in standing aloof and not willing to hear him. Hopefully, there will be no glorification of those tragic events in the 16th century, but a sober reflection on what has become of Christian unity, and where we can go from here. These articles are four years out in front. We really know nothing about 2017, or if it will even be a "celebration". So any cheering or booing really needs to be withheld, since we know essentially nothing. As for the visit, I find it encouraging. The more there is dialog between the Pope as representative of the Church and with other denominational leaders, the more gain there is to a reconciliation. The Reformation is a sticking point in areas like Germany, Switzerland, and England, because those were the hotbeds. And it probably will take a long time to heal those wounds. But healing it must be. And I think the start of that is prayer and penance. Catholics should request forgiveness of the Lord, that we may be granted the gift of reconciliation with our brothers. And, finally, conversion starts with oneself. Protestants will be drawn to the Church when they know that we are intent on self-conversion and fidelity to Christ, because they'll see Christ within us.

Scrip, while I admire your optimistic stance on things, I have to disagree with some of your assessment's. How many times does the Church have to apologize? I thought JPII took care of those "missteps" of the Church when he apologized for just about everything. Did that not count? We hear that Protestants are not formal heretics, but material heretics (and I assent to the Church's teaching on this), because they were not part of the original rebellion. Well, does that same rule not apply to the Church? "We" were not "there" when these "naughty things" took place.

And unity? We have unity within the Church. The Church does not need the Protestants or the Orthodox for the Church to be unified. It exists already.

This dialogue means nothing if they are not asked to convert to the Church. How many meetings does it take to get that point across? They are not our brothers until they have the Catholic Church as their mother and the Roman pontiff as their father. This has always been the teaching of the Church. If they are waiting for us to "appear to be perfect", then they will have a long wait (and risk losing their souls) by not applying that same rule to themselves. This is about truth, not just about every single one of us putting on Christ. There have always been sinners in the Church, and it never stopped many heretics from returning to the fold. What brought them back is recognizing the errors of their position. How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!

Because instigating conflict will only make people entrench themselves further.
(06-28-2013, 03:45 PM)dark lancer Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2013, 11:53 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Part of the healing of the Reformation is both sides admitting that there were actors who were wrong. Who knows what the tone of 2017 will be, but 1517 was a period of division and abuse in the Catholic Church. The Church maintained the purity of doctrine and handed on that, but many clerics, and the Popes themselves, were scandals. Perhaps it can be an occasion for each side give their mea cuplas, forgiveness to each, a regret for things getting out of hand, and a strong pull toward the one true Church. It is a great thing to be reconciled to one's brother, and there is not true glory in standing aloof and not willing to hear him. Hopefully, there will be no glorification of those tragic events in the 16th century, but a sober reflection on what has become of Christian unity, and where we can go from here. These articles are four years out in front. We really know nothing about 2017, or if it will even be a "celebration". So any cheering or booing really needs to be withheld, since we know essentially nothing. As for the visit, I find it encouraging. The more there is dialog between the Pope as representative of the Church and with other denominational leaders, the more gain there is to a reconciliation. The Reformation is a sticking point in areas like Germany, Switzerland, and England, because those were the hotbeds. And it probably will take a long time to heal those wounds. But healing it must be. And I think the start of that is prayer and penance. Catholics should request forgiveness of the Lord, that we may be granted the gift of reconciliation with our brothers. And, finally, conversion starts with oneself. Protestants will be drawn to the Church when they know that we are intent on self-conversion and fidelity to Christ, because they'll see Christ within us.

Scrip, while I admire your optimistic stance on things, I have to disagree with some of your assessment's. How many times does the Church have to apologize? I thought JPII took care of those "missteps" of the Church when he apologized for just about everything. Did that not count? We hear that Protestants are not formal heretics, but material heretics (and I assent to the Church's teaching on this), because they were not part of the original rebellion. Well, does that same rule not apply to the Church? "We" were not "there" when these "naughty things" took place.

And unity? We have unity within the Church. The Church does not need the Protestants or the Orthodox for the Church to be unified. It exists already.

This dialogue means nothing if they are not asked to convert to the Church. How many meetings does it take to get that point across? They are not our brothers until they have the Catholic Church as their mother and the Roman pontiff as their father. This has always been the teaching of the Church. If they are waiting for us to "appear to be perfect", then they will have a long wait (and risk losing their souls) by not applying that same rule to themselves. This is about truth, not just about every single one of us putting on Christ. There have always been sinners in the Church, and it never stopped many heretics from returning to the fold. What brought them back is recognizing the errors of their position. How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!

Because instigating conflict will only make people entrench themselves further.

Speaking truth is instigating? No one is asking that the Church be boorish about it.
(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]Scrip, while I admire your optimistic stance on things, I have to disagree with some of your assessment's. How many times does the Church have to apologize? I thought JPII took care of those "missteps" of the Church when he apologized for just about everything. Did that not count? We hear that Protestants are not formal heretics, but material heretics (and I assent to the Church's teaching on this), because they were not part of the original rebellion. Well, does that same rule not apply to the Church? "We" were not "there" when these "naughty things" took place.

Seventy-seven times. Whatever is needed to heal the wound. And I am speaking about those being reasonable. Some people will never reconcile, and for them you just can pray. Just because we weren't there, we should come to them asking forgiveness for our forefathers' part. Just as the laborer who came in at 5 o'clock, got the same pay as the rest, and the one's who labored all day grumbled, so we should be generous with bearing guilt, generous with forgiveness, and putting grudges aside. Since we have the grace of the Church and full communion, it should fall on us to bear the greater brunt of this encounter, out of charity for our separated brothers.

(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]And unity? We have unity within the Church. The Church does not need the Protestants or the Orthodox for the Church to be unified. It exists already.

The Church is one in her nature, and a perfect society. But in the human element there is much division, which needs to not be accepted as normal. It is not a matter of the Church lacking something, but of our sincere desire to share the Faith with our separated brothers. In that, the Church wants them.

(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]This dialogue means nothing if they are not asked to convert to the Church.

Of course. But I would ask them to convert to Christ. In that conversion we can show them how the Church relates to that. Christ has to be central, though, since we just admitted that sinful men mar that vision of unity and holiness.

(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]How many meetings does it take to get that point across? They are not our brothers until they have the Catholic Church as their mother and the Roman pontiff as their father. This has always been the teaching of the Church. If they are waiting for us to "appear to be perfect", then they will have a long wait (and risk losing their souls) by not applying that same rule to themselves. This is about truth, not just about every single one of us putting on Christ. There have always been sinners in the Church, and it never stopped many heretics from returning to the fold. What brought them back is recognizing the errors of their position. How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!

You seem frustrated. Why do you continue to sin? Why don't you get it, and stop sinning? Why don't you realize you are wrong, and convert? If you sin again, and seek confession, then maybe you can see why separated brothers remain separated -- sin. There is division because of sin, which darkens the intellect, not because they're not as smart as us.
(06-28-2013, 03:47 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking truth is instigating? No one is asking that the Church be boorish about it.

Oh really?

St. Pius of Trent Wrote:How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!

That sounds pretty boorish and confrontational to me.  It's far more charitable to be tactful and respectful when you know that you're dealing with someone who's not going to jump into the Tiber on a whim.

Thank God that we are not dealing with mobs of Protestants smashing up churches and hanging priests these days. 
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