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(06-28-2013, 03:41 PM)St. Pius of Trent Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2013, 11:53 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]Part of the healing of the Reformation is both sides admitting that there were actors who were wrong. Who knows what the tone of 2017 will be, but 1517 was a period of division and abuse in the Catholic Church. The Church maintained the purity of doctrine and handed on that, but many clerics, and the Popes themselves, were scandals. Perhaps it can be an occasion for each side give their mea cuplas, forgiveness to each, a regret for things getting out of hand, and a strong pull toward the one true Church. It is a great thing to be reconciled to one's brother, and there is not true glory in standing aloof and not willing to hear him. Hopefully, there will be no glorification of those tragic events in the 16th century, but a sober reflection on what has become of Christian unity, and where we can go from here. These articles are four years out in front. We really know nothing about 2017, or if it will even be a "celebration". So any cheering or booing really needs to be withheld, since we know essentially nothing. As for the visit, I find it encouraging. The more there is dialog between the Pope as representative of the Church and with other denominational leaders, the more gain there is to a reconciliation. The Reformation is a sticking point in areas like Germany, Switzerland, and England, because those were the hotbeds. And it probably will take a long time to heal those wounds. But healing it must be. And I think the start of that is prayer and penance. Catholics should request forgiveness of the Lord, that we may be granted the gift of reconciliation with our brothers. And, finally, conversion starts with oneself. Protestants will be drawn to the Church when they know that we are intent on self-conversion and fidelity to Christ, because they'll see Christ within us.

Scrip, while I admire your optimistic stance on things, I have to disagree with some of your assessment's. How many times does the Church have to apologize? I thought JPII took care of those "missteps" of the Church when he apologized for just about everything. Did that not count? We hear that Protestants are not formal heretics, but material heretics (and I assent to the Church's teaching on this), because they were not part of the original rebellion. Well, does that same rule not apply to the Church? "We" were not "there" when these "naughty things" took place.

And unity? We have unity within the Church. The Church does not need the Protestants or the Orthodox for the Church to be unified. It exists already.

This dialogue means nothing if they are not asked to convert to the Church. How many meetings does it take to get that point across? They are not our brothers until they have the Catholic Church as their mother and the Roman pontiff as their father. This has always been the teaching of the Church. If they are waiting for us to "appear to be perfect", then they will have a long wait (and risk losing their souls) by not applying that same rule to themselves. This is about truth, not just about every single one of us putting on Christ. There have always been sinners in the Church, and it never stopped many heretics from returning to the fold. What brought them back is recognizing the errors of their position. How will they ever know that unless we tell them flat out THAT THEY ARE WRONG, HERE"S WHY, AND CONVERT!

Thank you for that. Well stated.
You mean like the Apostles in Acts? Boorish? Nah.

And FWIW, the Church flourishes in suffering. The Sadie Hawkins bit is ineffective.
(06-28-2013, 08:12 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]You mean like the Apostles in Acts? Boorish? Nah.

And FWIW, the Church flourishes in suffering. The Sadie Hawkins bit is ineffective.

We all know that the Apostles were not a-holes. They called their fellow Israelites out on the carpet, sure, but we only see single episodes. Something to keep in mind also is the context of the apostles initial preaching. Israel was a-stir with rebellion. The place was electricity. And we never get any of the more intimate discussions the apostles had. So in the end, we receive a small glimpse into their preaching style. We know there are many approaches, and they should be attuned to the person or group as much as possible. There's no one method. Some people may react well to the "repent or ..." preaching method. Some may not at all, and be more receptive to a method which seeks to draw out greater good from them, and may take much longer to come to fruition.
The problem with "much longer" is it seems to be a multi-generational thing.

It's like having a 24 hour plan for a choking emergency.
(06-29-2013, 10:24 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]The problem with "much longer" is it seems to be a multi-generational thing.

It's like having a 24 hour plan for a choking emergency.

Hmm .. 1054 ... 1517 ...

We've got time. The key is not thinking we convert people. Christ converts people. We're instruments. God does what he wills. Our duty is to deliver the message in charity, which also means taking into account the person's circumstances. It is not charitable to say something true which we know would cause them to despair. But we have to be careful also to not hold out human respect or withhold truths by mere human sentiment. It takes nuance and wisdom. Good preachers can read people, and can be open to what they are telling you they need. What we lack is not message but holy men to go and give it. We need holiness.
The perpetual boyfriend, never getting on his knee with a ring, and when he does, he never asks the question.

This method is killing souls. Why does Iglesia Nueva hate my people? Why does the New Evangelization sound like old indifference and no evangelization?

They've had 50 freaking years to pull their heads out, claiming exit when pushing deeper will not stop this problem.
(06-29-2013, 10:34 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]The perpetual boyfriend, never getting on his knee with a ring, and when he does, he never asks the question.

This method is killing souls. Why does Iglesia Nueva hate my people? Why does the New Evangelization sound like old indifference and no evangelization?

They've had 50 freaking years to pull their heads out, claiming exit when pushing deeper will not stop this problem.

I just went to an Anglican use Mass last week. They got the message. Sorry if it isn't up to your standards.
(06-29-2013, 01:20 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-29-2013, 10:34 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]The perpetual boyfriend, never getting on his knee with a ring, and when he does, he never asks the question.

This method is killing souls. Why does Iglesia Nueva hate my people? Why does the New Evangelization sound like old indifference and no evangelization?

They've had 50 freaking years to pull their heads out, claiming exit when pushing deeper will not stop this problem.

I just went to an Anglican use Mass last week. They got the message. Sorry if it isn't up to your standards.

For the record, I'm a convert. I got the message. I came in despite the chaos, corruption and ailments going in the Church today. Praise be to God, I found the TLM, which is what I read about but hardly found in today's Church. I left what I was used to "at the door" because I wanted the traditions of the Church, not my own. However, I am joyful that these few Anglicans have come in. Maybe they can teach Catholics what beauty is in liturgy, and that in turn can induce Catholics to actually want to embrace their own authentic patrimony. It's certainly ain't coming from the NO....
I too am a convert. It was not Sacramental Protestantism which spurred my conversion but Tradition. When I finally started RCIA, and did not find Tradition, I sought it.

It was being told I was wrong, the zealous pursuit of proving them wrong, and the moment where I said, "oh... they're right," which made it click. Had I just heard how great my beliefs were, how I'm trying, we are all Christians, etc., well... why convert?

St. Anthony of Padua didnt go out and eat dinner, tell jokes, and hobnob with heretical adherents, he squashed them.

There comes a time when you pop the question. All else is fornication after that moment's time. We are beyond the moment.
(06-29-2013, 09:55 AM)Scriptorium Wrote: [ -> ]
(06-28-2013, 08:12 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: [ -> ]You mean like the Apostles in Acts? Boorish? Nah.

And FWIW, the Church flourishes in suffering. The Sadie Hawkins bit is ineffective.

We all know that the Apostles were not a-holes. They called their fellow Israelites out on the carpet, sure, but we only see single episodes. Something to keep in mind also is the context of the apostles initial preaching. Israel was a-stir with rebellion. The place was electricity. And we never get any of the more intimate discussions the apostles had. So in the end, we receive a small glimpse into their preaching style. We know there are many approaches, and they should be attuned to the person or group as much as possible. There's no one method. Some people may react well to the "repent or ..." preaching method. Some may not at all, and be more receptive to a method which seeks to draw out greater good from them, and may take much longer to come to fruition.

Thing is Scrip, pretty much no one in through false religions thinks its even necessary to convert to the Catholic Church anymore. And pretty much everyone (aside from us lowly traditional folk) in the Catholic Church agrees that its not necessary for salvation. I'd bet a nickel that your gut reaction to that is "but its not[/!''

And who could blame em? Its been half a century since anyone with any real visible authority in the Church has spoken of the necessity of conversion to the Catholic Faith. Half a century. What are we doing? Evangilization by ESP now? Just how many generations are supposed to live and die and be judged accordingly before the Church remembers its own thrice infallibly proclaimed dogma and the Great Commission given it by Our Lord?

Good grief man.
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