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Full Version: Egypt: Note in Mosque states Tawadros II has been added to a people to kill list
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The religion of peace is at it again.
I've been keeping Tawadros in my prayers since I heard about this.
(08-07-2013, 10:33 PM)Juanthetuba Wrote: [ -> ]I've been keeping Tawadros in my prayers since I heard about this.

The Blessed Mother appeared over a Coptic Church in the Cairo suburbs in 1968 and is watching over him as well. I pray for him, and for all in Egypt, they have dark days ahead of them.
In solidarity with my fellow Abrahamic brethren I show my support to their ever peaceful attempts at finding peace with the copts. Allahu Akbar, you guiz just don't understand that Islam is all about peace. When Muslims kill it's peaceful. So this is just a reflection of that. They want to murder him for peace. Get it? Insha Allah.
(08-08-2013, 02:59 AM)Basilios Wrote: [ -> ]In solidarity with my fellow Abrahamic brethren I show my support to their ever peaceful attempts at finding peace with the copts. Allahu Akbar, you guiz just don't understand that Islam is all about peace. When Muslims kill it's peaceful. So this is just a reflection of that. They want to murder him for peace. Get it? Insha Allah.

Of course, you are correct.  Here is a break down of all the peacefulness Islam has been giving the world this past July.  As you can certainly tell, it was another very peaceful month for Islam. 

July, 2013
Jihad Attacks: 306
Countries: 21
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 1548
Critically Injured: 2878

Islam and Judaism (i.e., post-Temple Talmudic rabbinism) are such gutter religions. I hate how they use Christians as pawns, putting us in the middle of their dirty little wars. I also hate how the American government allows it -- practically begs for it -- by going along with everything AIPAC wants. If neither group will convert, I think our best course of action is to mind our own business, stay out of their way, and defend our countries from them, whether it's defending against out and out aggression on their parts or whether it's their conquering us through immigration or power over our political processes and economies.

I also hate it when some folks, at least Americans, think they have to choose one of those groups or the other to side up with. "This group's worse, so we'd better support the second group when they're fighting against them!" That's a false dichotomy, and one that it seems most Americans fall for -- typically siding with Israel. Throw in so-called "Christian" Zionism on top of all that, our foreign policy is controlled by non-Americans (or by Americans with dual loyalties, their first loyalty being Eretz Israel). Here's an article from the Jerusalem Post about "Christian" Zionism. Prepare for nausea:

What motivates Christian Zionists?
08/29/2012 21:43

I am a Christian. And I am a Zionist. But it took me years of being both to realize that I’m a Christian Zionist.

Though I consider myself a strong Christian and a committed lover of Israel, out of college I was leery of calling myself a Christian Zionist.

My definition of a Christian Zionist was unclear and muddled by stereotypes I had absorbed over time.

Where I got those stereotypes is no mystery. Any time you hear interviews with prominent Christian Zionist leaders, certain questions are guaranteed to come up:

Gary Bauer from American Values, tell us why Evangelicals are so eager for the apocalypse?”

“Susan Michael from International Christian Embassy Jerusalem, is Church support for Israel merely a tool to convert the Jews?”

“Earl Cox from Israel Always, do Christian Zionists only support Israel to realize the scenario of Armageddon?”

The answers to these questions rarely matter. The question itself attempts to unmask alleged conspiracies of Christian Zionism and expose ambiguities in the alliance between pro-Israel Christians and Jews.

To outsiders, Jews and Christians seem strange political bedfellows — Jews, traditional loyalists of the Left and persecuted by the Church; and Evangelical Christians, the conservative base of the Right and tainted by a persecutor’s history.

Vox Wrote:Interesting that he at least acknowledges that Jews, as a group, are "traditional loyalists of the Left." But I wonder where he's getting this "persecuted by the Church" bit. Really, what's he thinking about? The Spanish Inquisition, for ex., had not a THING to do with Jews qua Jews (it had authority only over self-professed Catholics). The Church didn't kick the Jews out of Spain; Isabella and Ferdinand did. It wasn't Jews who were impoverished by Christians; it was the reverse that was true. Read, for ex., A Quo Primum, by Pope Benedict XIV.

Jews, who believe the Messiah has not yet come; and Christians, who believe the Messiah came once and will come again.

Skeptics of the Jewish- Christian alliance question this seemingly tenuous relationship.

They assume the worst motives from both parties to explain away the alliance. Christian Zionists support Israel to speed Armageddon and the return of Christ. Jews use Christian Zionists to further their pro- Israel aims.

I am not one to hold judgment here. If I — daughter of an Evangelical pastor — had so many misconceptions about Christian Zionism, I expect others to as well.

Therefore, I consider it my duty to assure the skeptics that Christian Zionists have no ulterior motives. As vice president of a major pro- Israel Christian organization, I have been to dozens of Christian Zionist meetings.

Never once have I heard talk about pushing Israel toward its doom just so Jesus will come back. I have never heard scheming about mass conversions. And as a natural cynic, I have been listening for it.

Vox Wrote:God forbid there should be mass conversions, eh? Everyone in the world needs Jesus to be saved -- except for Jewish people, I guess.

Here are the real motives of Christian Zionism: Repentance, thankfulness and obedience.

Repentance for Christianity’s long history of persecuting Jews. Thankfulness to the Jewish people for Christianity’s spiritual inheritance.

Vox Wrote:I warned you to prepare for nausea! Go get yourself a cuppa ginger tea and come back...

Obedience to the biblical commands to bless Israel.

Vox Wrote:The Church IS Israel. Israel is "the olive tree" in Scripture, and this is what St. Paul said about it:

Romans 11:17-20 "And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree,  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.  Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.  Well: because of unbelief they were broken off."

Some branches got broken off; others grafted in. But the tree is the same tree. The Church is in the line with the faithful Hebrews and faithful Jews of the Old Testament. We are the Church of Abraham and Isaac. Our God is their God. And our God didn't reject them or break them off of the olive tree; they broke themselves off because of unbelief. The faithful Jews of Jesus' time remained a part of Israel. SS Peter and Paul and John, et. al., many of our earliest martyrs...

These three tenets best expose what I call the “Jewish heart” of Christian Zionists.


Rabbi Irving Greenberg, a pioneer in Jewish-Christian dialogue and an expert on Jewish-Christian theology, once remarked that he did not care what religion or denomination you belonged to, as long as you were embarrassed about it. The Christian Church has plenty to be embarrassed about. For 2,000 years we made a habit out of affirming Christianity by negating Judaism.

Vox Wrote:That's because two contradictory things cannot both be true, goofball. Duh! The Messiah has already come -- or He hasn't. If we believe He has, then we obviously have to "negate" the idea that He hasn't. Why is this "anti-semitic"? And why aren't they considered racists for negating what we believe? We believe the Messiah has come, but they negate that idea. Why aren't they on the defensive about that?

Anti-Semitism started early in the Church out of a desire to separate Christianity from Judaism. As the Roman Church gained power this desire for distinction evolved into oppression. At best Jews were forcefully converted; at worst they were burned at the stake.

Vox Wrote:Wow. Realllllly? When did that happen, liar? I bet the Church stuck Jews in "Iron Maidens," too, even though that horrific device, attributed to being born of "the Inquisition," didn't exist until the 19th century LOL 

Persecution was excused by blaming Jews for the death of Jesus. Even more so, persecution was justified on the basis of a false teaching that said when Jews rejected Jesus, God rejected the Jews.

Vox Wrote:Because everyone knows it was actually the Swedes that done it. Read your Bibles! Better yet, read Jewish texts! Maimonodes, their greatest sage, wrote, in his "Letter to Yemen":  "[Jesus of Nazareth] impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him."

This prevalent belief is known as Replacement Theology.

Replacement Theology teaches that God has cut his people off from the covenants and has no future plans for the nation of Israel.

Vox Wrote:Replacement Theology, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the idea that God has no future plans for the carnal descendants of Abraham and Isaac. He may well have; many Church Fathers believed so (and many didn't, too). But, again, God didn't cut them off; they cut themselves off:

Jeremias 31:31-34 "Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:  Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 

Of course, Replacement Theology has a tough time explaining the supernatural survival of the Jewish people and the miraculous rebirth of the nation of Israel after almost 2,000 years.

Vox Wrote:No more than having to explain the "supernatural" survival of the Rom people. And there was nothing "miraculous" about the rebirth of the nation of Israel. That's what WWI was all about. Read about the Balfour Declaration. But aside from such temporal goings-on, the physical descendants of Abraham and Isaac who cut themselves off of the olive tree because of unbelief does have the element of Mystery about it. But it has nothing to do with God's blessings or what have you; it has to do with their being our "elder brothers," and the fact that the "elder brothers" in Sacred Scripture always looked toward the carnal, the worldly. And we all know who the "Prince of the World" is.

Galatians 4: 21-31"Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, have you not read the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, and the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman, was born according to the flesh: but he of the free woman, was by promise. Which things are said by an allegory. For these are the two testaments. The one from mount Sina, engendering unto bondage; which is Agar: For Sina is a mountain in Arabia, which hath affinity to that Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But that Jerusalem, which is above, is free: which is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, thou barren, that bearest not: break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for many are the children of the desolate, more than of her that hath a husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit; so also it is now. But what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free: by the freedom wherewith Christ has made us free." 

Christian teachings of contempt fed the fires of anti- Semitism for centuries. It took the horrors of the Holocaust to finally bring Christians to their knees, in spiritual humility repenting of the sins committed against the Jewish people.

Vox Wrote:I'm not on my knees over the Holocaust. Are you? If so, you shouldn't be. Christianity didn't cause it; Jewish behavior and power during the Weimar Republic, their Bolshevism, and their having sold Germany out during WWI did. None of that makes what happened to the Jewish people during WWII right or justified, obviously, but what happened wasn't a result of some "virulent anti-semitism" that sprang, somehow, from our Gospels. It happened in reaction to the behaviors of Jews as a group. 

Christian Zionists in the 20th century started a theological revolution in the Church to redefine the relationship between the Church and Israel. The first steps were to reject Replacement Theology, recognize Judaism as a living religion, and embrace the fact that God’s covenant with the Jewish people is eternal. It’s a simple acknowledgement. When God says “I will make an everlasting covenant with them,” he is talking about the Jewish people.

Vox Wrote:No, He's talking about Israel, and He upheld each and every Covenant He made with them in "Old Testament times" and with us as Israel in this era. God did not reject them; they rejected Him! St. Paul writes in Romans 11: "I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel?  Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

Christian Zionism has since become a loud voice against anti-Semitism. We now stand in support of Israel as a way to right our wrongs. Our aim is to turn afflictions of the past into blessings of the future.


Old accusations of Jews being Christ-killers have given way to thanksgiving to the Jewish people for the Bible and Mosaic Law. Pro- Israel Christians want to appreciate our Jewish brothers and sisters for passing down the fundamentals of the Christian faith, especially since in the past this debt has been ill repaid.

Jesus, born a Jew, lived an observant Jewish life.

Vox Wrote:Not observant enough for the Pharisees who sent Him to the Romans to be crucified for blasphemy.

According to the New Testament, Jesus kept the Sabbath, wore tallit katan and celebrated Jewish feasts and festivals.

We have no idea what Jesus looked like, but the one thing we do know about his physicality is that he was circumcised.

Vox Wrote:Look at the Shroud of Turin to see what He looks like. And as to circumcision, I Corinthians 7:18, "Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised." 

For many Christians, Jesus’s Jewishness is an attribute often disregarded and definitely not highlighted.

Of course, it doesn’t stop with Jesus. The prophets, patriarchs and authors of the Bible were all Jewish. The disciples and the Apostle Paul were Jewish. Pastor John Hagee, founder of Christians United for Israel, often quips that “out of all the authors of the Bible, there wasn’t a Baptist in the bunch.”

Vox Wrote:No, they weren't. Many were Hebrew. The "Jews" didn't come about until Joseph had his sons; there were Patriarchs and Prophets before them.

Eighty percent of the Christian Bible was written in Hebrew, by Hebrews, for Hebrews. Fundamental Christian sacraments such as communion and baptism are Jewish in origin.

Vox Wrote:As is the Christian priesthood, which your little evangelical group doesn't have, and which Jews no longer have, the Old Testament priesthood having been fulfilled in Christ, Who ordained St. Peter to head His Church whose Apostles lay hands on men to make more priests. And these priests offer the True Sacrifice, the only Sacrifice that is pleasing to God. They are the younger brother Abel offering the lamb, not the carnal, elder brother Cain offering his own works with a jealous, prideful spirit that culminated in murder.

Understanding Judaism is essential to understanding Christianity. While Judaism doesn’t need Christianity to explain its existence, without Judaism there would be no Christianity. It would seem Christians have a lot to be thankful for.

Vox Wrote:This would be true -- if she means by "Judaism" the religion of the Old Testament. Most likely she doesn't, however, and conflates what modern rabbis do with their Talmuds with what the Levites did with their offerings.

Loving the Jewish people out of repentance for the sin of anti-Semitism and thankfulness for our spiritual inheritance are not theological motives but moral ones.

Vox Wrote:We're not to love the Jewish people out of "repentance for the 'sin' (ahem! What commandment is that?) of 'anti-Semitism," or for thanklfulness for a spiritual inheritance which is ours to begin with, not theirs; we are to love them because they are human beings. But as we love them, we are to be as "wise as serpents" and not betray Christ by throwing His Church under the bus in order to appease a twisted view of History. We need to defend our Church against the bull*^*^ and do so prudently, letting the chips fall where they may.

Theology, however, is the greatest driving force behind Christian Zionism. Religious belief is what mixes with and reinforces Christians’ moral reasons for supporting Israel.


Christian Zionists emphatically believe they have a biblical responsibility toward Israel and the Jewish people.

In Genesis, we find the cornerstone of Christian Zionism when God tells Abraham: “I will bless those who bless you, and those who curse you I will curse.” Isaiah gives them their call to action: “Comfort, yes, comfort my people says your God... speak tenderly to Jerusalem.”

The commands to bless and comfort Israel are given to all peoples, but according to the Apostle Paul Christians have additional obligations.

There is a whole chapter in the New Testament book of Romans where Paul talks about Christians’ unique responsibility toward Jews. Paul wrote: “If the Gentiles have shared in the Jews spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings” (Romans 15:27). Christian Zionists take this passage and similar ones as a direct command to provide for Israel’s needs.

Vox Wrote:Read the 15th chapter of Romans here. Note that St. Paul ends that chapter with a request for prayer that he be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea.  In chapter 11, he also refers to Jews as our enemies concerning the Gospel. But nevermind that. (and remember that we are to love our enemies even as we protect ourselves against them!)

Anyway, the sharing of material blessings. Uh-huh. It's not we Christians who have the material blessings, if she hadn't noticed. But if you want to read how "Christian" Zionists are hoodwinked into sending everything they've got to the wealthiest group of people in the world, please see this old post of mine. Scroll down to the story of the Florida family who doesn't feel comfortable sitting down to dinner unless they've sent $15 to help the poor, starving Jews, which don't exist. Yup, they send $15 each and every day  for the cause (and meanwhile, FE has financial problems enough that its very existence on the internet is in peril. Yay!). Read about the the kids who give up their Christmas and birthday presents so all those poor, starving Ethiopians, I mean Jews, can go to bed with full bellies. For real, this article is INSANE: 

How do they do this? Christian support of Israel usually comes through one of three resources: money, prayer and political power, none of which are in short supply. Over the past 20 years, Christian Zionists have given hundreds of millions to support aliya, aid victims of terror and provide for Israel’s poor. Whether privately at home or with large groups at church, Christian prayer for Israel is happening around the clock. And Christian Zionists even in the past few years have grown more savvy and organized on the political advocacy scene.

Vox Wrote:Gosh, that's surprising! She actually mentioned "political power" and noted that it's not in short supply. Interesting!

The movement

There is a movement among Christians today. Christian Zionism is growing as believers are getting more educated and informed about the plight of modern Israel. Christians are coming to realize that Israel’s story offers a chance to see God’s hand at work in the world today. The conservative estimate of Christian Zionists in America is around 15 million, a third of the Evangelical population. This movement is going mainstream and I’m so thankful to be part of it.

Vox Wrote:There's nothing of "God's Hand" in the displacement of millions of Palestinians, their being treated like vermin and kept behind walls. There's nothing -- or not much, anyway -- of "God's Hand" coming from Hollywood and the porn industries. Same with the world of international banking.  If you really want to see God's hand at work today, go to a parish where the TLM is offered and watch Our Lord humiliate Himself to feed us, to save us, as He offers Himself up to the Father. Go to a Catholic-run soup kitchen. Go read the recent thread about the "priest" appearing miraculously out of nowhere to tend to an accident victim. Go to an abortion clinic where pro-life workers risk jail time to urge women not to kill their babies. Go find a woman who's homeschooling a handful of kids without the benefit of living in a Catholic neighborhood and without the help of extended family. Meet her husband who's working 2 gigs to feed his brood. Go meet the trad priests who work 60-hour weeks, around the clock, ready for those middle of the night sick calls and daily Masses. If you want to see the Hand of God, go look in His Church, no matter how messed-up Her human element is these days. Go look for Love and you will see it. But don't hop on a plane to Israel and expect to find it. 

“Shelley Neese from Jerusalem Connection, what motivates Christian Zionists, like yourself, to support Israel?” What I say is this: Christian Zionism is based on love.

Love for God and love for the people of God. Christian Zionism is based more on the promises in Genesis than the prophecies in Revelation.

We believe Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy and evidence of God’s faithfulness.

The survival of the Jewish people, truly against all odds, is proof of God’s fidelity.

Vox Wrote:More likely it's evidence that the Prince of the World has power over the world, and that paranoia, always having an "enemy" to point toward as being always and everywhere out to get you, works in building group cohesiveness.

The birth of a Jewish state is not a political coincidence or a grand social experiment.

It is a miracle. For Christian Zionists, if God ordained the creation of Israel, and defends Israel, then those who fight with Israel are on the right side.

Vox Wrote:The "creation" of Eretz Israel stemmed from a pay-off by Britain to the bankster Rothschilds via the Balfour Declaration. Does she really think that that's how God works His miracles? She thinks that God "ordained" the U.K. to give away a populated country it didn't even own to a group of people who didn't live there? She's nuts if she does.

To Jewish friends reading this, or to skeptics who cannot accept this progression of thought, I say that today is a new day and we are a new generation of Christians.

American Jews may be weary of a partnership with Christians because of religious differences, disagreements on domestic politics, or a tortuous history that time has not yet healed.

Vox Wrote:Those "disagreements on domestic politics" amounting to the desire on the part of Jewish groups to wipe out any vestige of Christianity from the public square or as a basis for law. Abortion, gay "marriage," abortion, condoms handed out to kids -- all the way down to the "war on Christmas." Yup, those little "disagreements on domestic politics" are nothing to get hung about. And it's "anti-semitic," a "hate crime," to even talk about the problems, of course.

However, in matters relating to Israel, Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists are the most natural of allies. Our motives are pure, our actions are telling, and our offer of partnership is genuine.

Vox Wrote:"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." Sigh.

Just heard on the CBC that he has cancelled some public services that he had been scheduled to take.