FishEaters Traditional Catholic Forums

Full Version: Pope Francis and Tradition
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3
A recent article on the Catholic Family News website ( http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/84bb4...c-134.html )...

Just posting it here to see if anyone has further comments on the situation. I tend to agree with most of Venarri's writings, and this is no different. Pretty spot on I'd say.

---------------


Pope Francis and Tradition 


By John Vennari


I would like to make a few observations in light of the Vatican’srecent move
 on the Franciscan of Immaculata that encroaches on their right to celebrate the Old Mass: 

1) Based upon Pope Francis’ statements against those who seek “restoration of outdated manners and forms” that he claims are “ no longer meaningful”(July 28) – along with other such utterances – it appears he has little love for the Traditional Mass or pre-Vatican II structures.

2) I have read Cardinal Bergoglio’s On Heaven and Earth (co-written with Rabbi Skorka), and his various speeches since becoming Pope. He is clearly a man of the new orientation; thoroughly convinced of the Council’s program of ecumenism and interreligious collaboration; an enthusiast for Charismatics; a Pope who publicly sends Ramadan greetings to Muslims, the list goes on. I have quoted various disturbing aspects of On Heaven and Earth in various reports over the past few months.

3) That being said, I don’t think it necessarily the case that, in light the Vatican’s recent actions against the Franciscans of the Immaculata, Francis will now follow through with some sort of suppression of approved Tridentine groups, such as the Fraternity of Saint Peter and Institute of Christ the King. I think he doesn’t concern himself with these groups, and probably sees little value in them.

4) As for the other drama that unfolded over the past 18 months, I don’t think Pope Francis will show any interest in the SSPX unless they open a string of soup kitchens.

5) However, the world’s bishops often have a sixth sense for judging which way the Vatican wind blows; and the wind does not now flow in favor of Tradition. Even the July 31 Associated Press reported: “Francis’ predecessor, Benedict XVI, had coddled traditionalist Catholics attached to the old Latin Mass and opposed to the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council. That group greeted Francis’ election with concern — and now is watching its worst fears come true. Francis has spoken out both publicly and privately against such ‘restoratist groups,’ which he accuses of being navel-gazing retrogrades out of touch with the evangelizing mission of the Church in the 21st century.” If this is what is sensed by the secular press, I’m sure the world’s bishops sense it as well. And as we know, bishops as a group usually conform to the prevailing wind.

6) It is always perilous to hazard a prediction, but I will advance the following: Granted, I do not think Pope Francis will take an active interest in suppressing the Old Mass. However, if he is asked to make a decision between a traditional group and a progressivist bishop, or progressivist cause, I think he will favor the progressivists every time. This was certainly the case during Vatican II and afterwards. When faced with a decision, Pope Paul VI usually favored the progressives over the conservatives. This is what I think we will see under Pope Francis; and it is in this manner that Tradition will be disfavored under this pontificate (along with Pope Francis’ “positive” actions to advance the new orientation).

7) Along these lines, it is not unthinkable for the CDF’s Archbishop Muller to go on the attack against traditional Catholics (particularly the SSPX), and if he does, I think Pope Francis will not stop him. I also believe Francis will appoint bishops who are indifferent or hostile to the Old Mass – a troop of mini-Bergoglios.

8 ) In light of this, I think our people will need as much help as we can give them. I see the need to step up our efforts to clearly explain our position, to state with pitiless objectivity the problems with the Council and the post-Conciliar orientation. We do not do this as angry commandos, but with an approach grounded in calm, sober Thomistic realism. Granted, not every utterance needs to be contra-Vatican II, but these reminders could be a regular staple in what we present to those entrusted to our care. As I said, they will need help, since I believe our faithful will become increasingly marginalized as progressivism further advances under Pope Francis, and as we behold his further institutionalization of the revolution.

Finally, a sed contra to one of my own arguments: If Pope Francis does not really concern himself with traditionalist groups, as I speculated earlier, then I am not sure why he, apparently on his own without any promptings from anyone else, voices opposition to them, as he has twice done already (April 16 & July 28). It bears further watching. Perhaps traditionalists grate on Francis more than we think.
We are in for a rough road. I feel like an outcast because I love the Latin Mass. The FFI provides the Latin Mass in my home town. If they are suppressed/do not get approval, I am orphaned when it comes to the Latin Mass. However, I have attended an Ordinary Form provided by the FFI and they do it how Vatican II wanted it and they do it reverently. No foolishness.
(08-10-2013, 05:48 PM)Asperges me Wrote: [ -> ]We are in for a rough road. I feel like an outcast because I love the Latin Mass. The FFI provides the Latin Mass in my home town. If they are suppressed/do not get approval, I am orphaned when it comes to the Latin Mass. However, I have attended an Ordinary Form provided by the FFI and they do it how Vatican II wanted it and they do it reverently. No foolishness.

I hope you don't lose the TLM there...have to wait and see how the FFI thing plays out. Agreed rough times are a coming. We seem ok in my neck of the woods with two locations for the Latin Mass with ICKSP and an SSPX chapel as well if the rug gets pulled out from under us by the bishops.
I agree that there is now enough reason to conclude that this pope does not favor Tradition, or the traditional Mass, but I think there is still a lot we do not know about the mind of this pope on restoring Tradition or what the future holds. It does not look very good, but Pope Francis prove us wrong. He is unpredictable. So is God's providence. Lets pray that Francis will be faithful to Tradition and that God will use his pontificate for this purpose.
Well, we can express our feelings, write to the Pope, politely remind him that we love the Tridentine Mass and ceremonies, request him to promote them.  He will have to hear us.
What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  Smile ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: [ -> ]What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  Smile ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.
(08-11-2013, 07:35 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: [ -> ]What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  Smile ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.

Perhaps he's looking to unite first, then change the Liturgy (to the Orthodox Liturgy).

Not sure how I feel about that idea. 
(08-11-2013, 07:46 AM)2Vermont Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 07:35 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: [ -> ]What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  Smile ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.

Perhaps he's looking to unite first, then change the Liturgy (to the Orthodox Liturgy).

Not sure how I feel about that idea. 

I think realistic chances of union are extremely slim to none. No matter how flexible he is the Orthodox still look down their noses at us;  I am thinking of Bartholomew's address at Georgetown University in 1997, sometimes known as the "friends, brothers, heretics" speech. Not going to happen.

C.
(08-11-2013, 07:53 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 07:46 AM)2Vermont Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 07:35 AM)Cetil Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-11-2013, 05:50 AM)Pro Tridentina (Malta) Wrote: [ -> ]What I still can't fathom about Pope Francis is his appreciation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy which is still traditional. Since he's also ecumenically minded, he should remember (or be informed  Smile ) that the Orthodox were/are in favour of Summorum Pontificum:

http://pro-tridentina-malta.blogspot.com...morum.html

A very good point, and he does seem to grasp the problem at least in part: "In the Orthodox Churches they have kept that pristine liturgy, so beautiful. We have lost a bit the sense of adoration. They keep, they praise God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t count. God is the center, and this is a richness that I would like to say on this occasion in which you ask me this question. Once, speaking of the Western Church, of Western Europe, especially the Church that has grown most, they said this phrase to me: “Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus.” Consumerism, wellbeing, have done us so much harm. Instead you keep this beauty of God at the center, the reference. When one reads Dostoyevsky – I believe that for us all he must be an author to read and reread, because he has wisdom – one perceives what the Russian spirit is, the Eastern spirit. It’s something that will do us so much good. We are in need of this renewal, of this fresh air of the East, of this light of the East."
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/201...gXKHWrn-1s

C.

Perhaps he's looking to unite first, then change the Liturgy (to the Orthodox Liturgy).

Not sure how I feel about that idea. 

I think realistic chances of union are extremely slim to none. No matter how flexible he is the Orthodox still look down their noses at us;  I am thinking of Bartholomew's address at Georgetown University in 1997, sometimes known as the "friends, brothers, heretics" speech. Not going to happen.

C.

Yeah, I don't think it will happen either. So I have to take the Pope's praise for their Liturgy as merely a way to break down the walls, not a real desire to have such liturgy in the Latin Church.
Pages: 1 2 3