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(08-16-2013, 01:14 PM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:07 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:05 PM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:04 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:00 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 12:48 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]Charismaticism is liberal in the sense that it's a novelty that didn't exist before the Council. I would think that there are otherwise plenty of orthodox-minded charismatics That doesn't make charismaticism itself Catholic in nature.

Before St. Francis mendicant orders did not exist.  Does that mean they are not really Catholic?  Did they become Catholic after they had been around for long enough to not be considered a novelty?

By the way, this novelty of mendicants was a major factor in St. Thomas Aquinas's parents opposing him becoming a Dominican.  Would you say they were correct to do so?

I never said that charismatics are not Catholic. As usual, you are distorting what I'm saying. I have said that charismaticism isn't Catholic. How many traditional priests do you know (who celebrate the TLM) who support CCR? Please state their names, so that it can be verified.

Quick, call the diocese!

No need to call the diocese. How many traditional priests (who celebrate the TLM) do you know, Melchoir, who support CCR? I think it's a fair question.

Sorry, you made it sound like an inquisition.  STate names so we can verify their trad "creds".  Anyway, I know several traditional priests who support the CCR.  Unless the FSSP isn't traditional.

Of course...anytime a traditionalist criticizes your pet beliefs, it makes it an inquisition. Where have I heard that before? Next you will be accusing me of being uncharitable. I'm surprised you haven't done so already. But that's okay, Jayne will do it if you don't. And as far as "creds" go, I'm not interested in that. I just want to be able to verify that a trad priest supports CCR. But then that would be considered to be uncharitable, too, right?
(08-16-2013, 01:28 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]What FSSP priest supports CCR? I don't believe it.

The FSSP parish here in town supports the CCR, because it is a central element of the Companions of the Cross, whose home base is in the city.  Both are Societies of Apostolic Life, they have equal canonical standing.
Here in San Diego, the Charismatics I'm familiar with, sure enough the ones who brought me back to the faith, are pretty orthodox and conservative. They, honestly, have no interest in reforming or influencing the Liturgy, they usually attend whatever parish is nearby for Mass(which is only as good as whatever NO is offered there), they encourage frequent confession, fasting, traditional devotions, novenas, many are active in theirown  parishes, pray the LOTH, frequently go to Adoration, and quite a couple I know have attended, and liked, the TLM. Even if they have to set up there own Mass(for exampe at a conference or a retreat) there's no puppets, or praying in tongues during Mass, there's no dancing, or pentecostal "slain in the spirit" type stuff going on.

They do sing alot praise and worship songs, and raise there hands during their prayer sessions, but this is outside of Mass( or while they holds hands during the Our Father,lol), but again I have no qualms with this, they make no claims that this replaces the necessity of the Sacraments or public Liturgy of the Church.

No doubt there are kooky liberal charismatics out there, but based on my experience, they'd probably be in the minority.
(08-16-2013, 01:09 PM)maldon Wrote: [ -> ]The charismatics I have met, and I have met many, are extremely orthodox, and extremely pious. There are three things they seem to do all day long: Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, Rosary, and Confession.

I am not comfortable with raising hands in the air or holding hands. This is a personal, temperamental thing. The earliest depictions we have of Christians has them with hands in the air. So I have superficial issues with them that make me go elsewhere. But the fact is that in many places, especially in the Third World, these people are very orthodox. They are also often the only pro-life voices to be heard. So I wouldn't put them all in one bag, and I wouldn't knock them.

Same goes for many other categories. I mean, for me, you would have to create a whole new category which says "Doesn't care anymore about the polemics. Goes to Trad mass when possible, NO when TLM not possible. Apart from that, does his best with prayer life and avoiding evil."

It is true that I do care about some of these things, but "Conciliar Ambiguities"? Don't care about it anymore."Quanta Cura'? Never heard of it. "FSSP"? Yep, good people, some better than others go to the masses. But do I actually KNOW the FSSP? Not really. I'm just a guy going to mass, confession, and the after-mass social stuff. "Errors of the Council"? Don't care. Where would you start? Where would it end? Better to ignore, hit reset, and have a new council in a few decades. "Anathema sit"? Is this a document? If so, never heard of it. If it is just old-fashioned papal condemnation, then . . . whatever. "SSPX"? Visited their place once. Nice priest, just like the FSSP priest. This is one of the only things I could say I "care" about here. I attend an FSSP church, and am 100% grateful for it and happy to be there. But I do care about the SSPX, because I feel they got a raw, raw, raw, raw deal in this world. A nasty deal. Yes, I am sure there are some kooks in the SSPX, but it is sooooo hypocritical for people to say this, as if  there are no kooks in FSSP hangouts, in NO parishes, or in the Vatican. In fact, we are all kooks in some sense anyway.

So anyway, I care about the down-to-earth basics of salvation. I am fortunate enough to have TLM availability. If I didn't, I would attend NO rather than nothing. I worry about my children. I see 3 possible ends to the current situation.
1. Most likely: demographic solution. In 20 years, Trad groups and orthodox NO groups of all stripes will predominate. They will have to rebuild.
2. Less likely and scary: schism and such disorder that we will all be in an emergency situation.
3. Least likely. God intervenes, asteroid or whatever, and we all repent. (almost zero likelihood in my view)

So I need a category for "Skeptical Traditional Catholic"

A lot of sensible position here. I might say this represents my view pretty much exactly on the face of it (no children yet, though  :(( )

It's been my opinion for a while now that the Second Vatican Council is irrelevent to laymen, and almost invisible for those with access to the TLM. No point in arguing about a council that isn't understood. Didn't teach anything new apparently (even its proponents are saying this now) and didn't legislate any codes that affect us. Best move on, I say.
(08-16-2013, 01:35 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]Of course...anytime a traditionalist criticizes your pet beliefs, it makes it an inquisition. Where have I heard that before? Next you will be accusing me of being uncharitable. I'm surprised you haven't done so already. But that's okay, Jayne will do it if you don't. And as far as "creds" go, I'm not interested in that. I just want to be able to verify that a trad priest supports CCR. But then that would be considered to be uncharitable, too, right?

If the cornflakes taste funny, don't eat them, ma'am.  
(08-16-2013, 01:36 PM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:28 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]What FSSP priest supports CCR? I don't believe it.

The FSSP parish here in town supports the CCR, because it is a central element of the Companions of the Cross, whose home base is in the city.  Both are Societies of Apostolic Life, they have equal canonical standing.

In what way do the the FFSP support CCR?
You know what?  I owe the board an apology.  Jayne and Rich are correct; there's a very vocal minority who say things like charismatics and the charismatic renewal are heretical, but for the most part people are either indifferent or think it's fine (and it's just not for them).
(08-16-2013, 01:41 PM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]You know what?  I owe the board an apology.  Jayne and Rich are correct; there's a very vocal minority who say things like charismatics and the charismatic renewal are heretical, but for the most part people are either indifferent or think it's fine (and it's just not for them).

Another distortion (or outright lie). I never said that charismaticsm is heretical. I take it that you can't or won't tell me how the FSSP in your area support CCR?
(08-16-2013, 01:44 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-16-2013, 01:41 PM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]You know what?  I owe the board an apology.  Jayne and Rich are correct; there's a very vocal minority who say things like charismatics and the charismatic renewal are heretical, but for the most part people are either indifferent or think it's fine (and it's just not for them).

Another distortion (or outright lie). I never said that charismaticsm is heretical. I take it that you can't or won't tell me how the FSSP in your area support CCR?

If you want to talk about distortion, I never said you specifically called charismatics heretical - nor were you singled by name in my post.  Again, if the cornflakes taste funny get away from the table.

The FSSP in my area support the CCR in the following ways:

-  Promoting their events.
-  Not calling them heretics.
-  Doing diocesan events together.
-  Discussing mutual interests.

Other misc etc items. 
(08-16-2013, 01:35 PM)Meg Wrote: [ -> ]Next you will be accusing me of being uncharitable. I'm surprised you haven't done so already. But that's okay, Jayne will do it if you don't.

Meg, I am sorry if I have been overly critical and accusatory towards you.  I will try to speak more gently to you in the future.
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