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what do you fishies think about the great deed promised by our lord to blessed julian of norwich -- the deed that would make all things well and assuage her disturbance about those condemned to hell?

you can read this particular part of her book, revelations of divine love, here:  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations.xiv.vi.html

our lord speaks of saving his word in all things. i wonder if that means the logoi.

i think that this will be something like the apocatatasis, but not exactly that.  i think it is something that would be hard for us to comprehend.  but it sounds like my jesus.

he shall make all things well.
I have wondered about this, Guacamole. It began with a reading of Eliot's Little Gidding. Next thing I knew, I was reading that strangest of encounters between Our Lord and Blessed Julian. At one point, He tells her that He will not go on answering her on and on. Very cool.

Now, about the apocatastasis, I thought that was a condemned theory, though it seems it had been held by Origen. My interpretation of Our Lord's words to Blessed Julian is that in the end and at the end we will all be quite sure that it is all as it should be. I do not think it means apocatastasis. But if memory serves me right (and it mightn't) I thought Our Lord had explained that Adam's sin was the worst committed on earth, and that Our Lord made up for it, so clearly, no sin is too great for Him to forgive. Still, it doesn't mean that people will accept it.

I don't know. Sorry for rambling. I really like the idea of apocatastasis, but that is probably because I am a great sinner.
maldon, thanks.  i think it means more than the already revealed work of salvation, because bl. julian regards this as something new and not known.  our lord tells her that he will do a great deed that will save his word in all things.  as i said, i don't think this is quite the apocatastasis.  bl. julian herself says that she will go on believing what the church teaches about hell, but that she expects our lord to do 'the impossible,' as he said he could, and would.

this is a private revelation, so no one is bound to give it any credence.  however, it has a definite 'feel' to it that gives it credibility for me.  what i mean is that it comports with the almost unbearable mercy and omnipotence of 'this tremendous lover.'

again, i don't think this is exactly the apocatastasis condemned by the church.  the eastern church teaches that in each created thing, including human beings, there is a 'word,' or an idea -- a unique 'logos,' which is, in a sense, within the one logos who is god the son.  these they call the logoi.  holy people advanced in prayer can perceive these logoi.  these are something like god's ideas of each of us.  i suspect that our lord may be saying that he will save these logoi, despite the rest of the person being consumed eternally in hell.  just my working hypothesis.
Very interesting!

Thanks for posting!
I always liked Origen and Julia.

(08-30-2013, 08:48 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I always liked Origen and Julia.

First I've heard of Julian, but I am weary of Origen.
(08-30-2013, 09:42 AM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-30-2013, 08:48 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I always liked Origen and Julia.

First I've heard of Julian, but I am weary of Origen.

Pope Benedict liked Origen too. I don't know if I'm violating some rule in philosophical discussion (?), you know, mentioning the fact that a great person like the Pope shares my opinion LOL But I did smile when I found out Pope Benedict liked Origen. Until then, I was afraid to admit it out loud.. =)
(08-30-2013, 09:46 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-30-2013, 09:42 AM)Melchior Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-30-2013, 08:48 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: [ -> ]I always liked Origen and Julia.

First I've heard of Julian, but I am weary of Origen.

Pope Benedict liked Origen too. I don't know if I'm violating some rule in philosophical discussion (?), you know, mentioning the fact that a great person like the Pope shares my opinion LOL But I did smile when I found out Pope Benedict liked Origen. Until then, I was afraid to admit it out loud.. =)

I'm only weary of Origen because when you read Jerome's writings, he just absolutely eviscerates Rufinus over the orthodoxy of Origen.  Jurgen's "Faith of the Early Fathers" goes into some of those details, and oh boy.

That said, Origen did have some good things to say.  No harm in saying so out loud!

Eternity.is forever, if forever is a term to describe eternity.  To even consider apocatatasis as a viable theory begs the question.  This theory was first atttibuted to St. Gregory of Nyssa, who taught that the fires of hell was thought of the method of refining gold in a furnace which in time cleanses all impurities.  Further, we are reminded of St Paul's words: .Deus erit omnia in omnibus (1 Corinthians 15:28), "which means that evil shall, ultimately, have an end, since, if God be all in all, there is no longer any place for evil "  However, hell is not all about fire.  The pain of fire is nothing compared to the loss of God and the hatred borne by those thrown there.  The words of our Lord in condemnation:  Matthew 25:41 "Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."

Apocatatasis was condemned by the Church (mid 6th Century) against the Origenists.  Some seem to like Origen.  He is still quoted thru his writings.  But I'm not much or ever was, for him.
In the end the "good deed" will be to punish the damned and reward the blessed, finalizing God's justice and mercy.

It is dogmatic teaching that some will be punished in hell for eternity, i.e. they will absolutely never be saved and go to heaven.

That said, it seems to me there is room for questioning how many in the end actually are damned to hell.  Perhaps most of us. Perhaps few of us.  Its an open question.  As long as we avoid Universalism.  The Church tries to save all of humanity and hopes all of humanity will turn towards God's grace.  But the Church also knows that those who in their hearts reject God's grace up until the moment of their death cannot be saved because of free will.  God cannot force us to cooperate with Him.

"Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins.  Save us from the fires of hell.  Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who need your help the most"
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