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I could really use some help. On one hand the CCC says this

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

...however St John of the Cross states otherwise in his magnum opus The Ascent of Mount Carmel: Book 2; Chapter 11

11. The spiritual person, then, has to deny himself all the apprehensions, and the temporal delights, that belong to the outward senses, if he will destroy the first and the second head of this beast, and enter into the first chamber of love, and the second, which is of living faith, desiring neither to lay hold upon, nor to be embarrassed by, that which is given to the senses, since it is this that derogates most from faith.

12. It is clear, then, that these sensual apprehensions and visions cannot be a means to union, since they bear no proportion to God; and this was one of the reasons why Christ desired that the Magdalene and Saint Thomas should not touch Him. And so the devil rejoices greatly when a soul desires to receive revelations, and when he sees it inclined to them, for he has then a great occasion and opportunity to insinuate errors and, in so far as he is able, to derogate from faith; for, as I have said, he renders the soul that desires them very gross, and at times even leads it into many temptations and unseemly ways.



It seems really confusing. Here, a Doctor of the Church says "steer clear of charisms" but the CCC is saying embrace them?  ???
Someone with more knowledge than I may want to jump in, but there is no contradiction between the paragraph of the Catechism and St. John's words.

What St. John is warning against is a desire to possess these gifts, these charism, these "blessings." Relying on sensual, emotional, (in other words non-rational) methods of connection or communion with God is a slippery slope and a bad path.

If we are given a charism by the Holy Ghost, we should use it for the exaltation of our holy Mother the Church. But we shouldn't be anxious waiting around for them to come or puff ourselves up with pride when they do.

I hope this helps.
Mmkay so kinda like Saint Padre Pio's stigmata. He had it, didn't seek it and certainly wouldn't want it...but gracefully accepted it with humility and even though he never went around saying "hey! look at my wounds!" it brought many to hear his preaching because of this gift from the Holy Ghost.

Does that sound right?
(09-18-2013, 11:50 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Mmkay so kinda like Saint Padre Pio's stigmata. He had it, didn't seek it and certainly wouldn't want it...but gracefully accepted it with humility and even though he never went around saying "hey! look at my wounds!" it brought many to hear his preaching because of this gift from the Holy Ghost.

Does that sound right?

Absolutely.

Saint Paul (and Saint John of the Cross) had it right: "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world."
Thank you so much!  :)
Paragraph 799 defines what is meant by charisms:

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

The main Fisheaters site lists the things traditionally numbered as charisms of the Holy Spirit. All these things build up the Church (note, the sensual apprehensions and visions described by St. John are not listed).

Gift of speaking with wisdom
Gift of speaking with knowledge
Faith
Grace of healing
Gift of miracles
Gift of prophecy
Gift of discerning spirits
Gift of tongues (i.e., xenolalia, the ability to speak foreign languages unknown by natural reason)
Gift of interpreting speeches

Note:
See I Corinthians 12:6-11; I Corinthians 12:28-31; and Romans 12:6-8. The number of items in this class of Gifts of the Holy Ghost, properly called "charismata," is disputed among theologians. Some add: Gift of government, Gift of Helps, Gift of distributio, Gift of misericordia. The charismata were/are not necessary for individual sanctification, were/are not distributed to all Christians, and are to be subjected to authority and the proper ends for which they were given (I Corinthians 12-14).

http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#4
(09-19-2013, 04:37 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]Paragraph 799 defines what is meant by charisms:

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

The main Fisheaters site lists the things traditionally numbered as charisms of the Holy Spirit. All these things build up the Church (note, the sensual apprehensions and visions described by St. John are not listed).

Gift of speaking with wisdom
Gift of speaking with knowledge
Faith
Grace of healing
Gift of miracles
Gift of prophecy
Gift of discerning spirits
Gift of tongues (i.e., xenolalia, the ability to speak foreign languages unknown by natural reason)
Gift of interpreting speeches

Note:
See I Corinthians 12:6-11; I Corinthians 12:28-31; and Romans 12:6-8. The number of items in this class of Gifts of the Holy Ghost, properly called "charismata," is disputed among theologians. Some add: Gift of government, Gift of Helps, Gift of distributio, Gift of misericordia. The charismata were/are not necessary for individual sanctification, were/are not distributed to all Christians, and are to be subjected to authority and the proper ends for which they were given (I Corinthians 12-14).

http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#4

How does faith, the charism, differ from faith, the supernatural virtue (had by all in the state of grace)?
(09-21-2013, 06:51 PM)Doce Me Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2013, 04:37 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]Paragraph 799 defines what is meant by charisms:

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

The main Fisheaters site lists the things traditionally numbered as charisms of the Holy Spirit. All these things build up the Church (note, the sensual apprehensions and visions described by St. John are not listed).

Gift of speaking with wisdom
Gift of speaking with knowledge
Faith
Grace of healing
Gift of miracles
Gift of prophecy
Gift of discerning spirits
Gift of tongues (i.e., xenolalia, the ability to speak foreign languages unknown by natural reason)
Gift of interpreting speeches

Note:
See I Corinthians 12:6-11; I Corinthians 12:28-31; and Romans 12:6-8. The number of items in this class of Gifts of the Holy Ghost, properly called "charismata," is disputed among theologians. Some add: Gift of government, Gift of Helps, Gift of distributio, Gift of misericordia. The charismata were/are not necessary for individual sanctification, were/are not distributed to all Christians, and are to be subjected to authority and the proper ends for which they were given (I Corinthians 12-14).

http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#4

How does faith, the charism, differ from faith, the supernatural virtue (had by all in the state of grace)?

Hmmm yes that is curious. I'd like to hear the clarification on that too. I know I could just look it up, but the tank has such a way of synthesizing (and filtering  :LOL:) information. I'm a simpleton.
Hmmm, good question! St. Paul lists "faith" as among the operations of the Spirit given to some, but not all, which is puzzling:

1 Cor. 12:[4] Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; [5] And there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord; [6] And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all. [7] And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit. [8] To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; [9] To another, faith in the same spirit; to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit; [10] To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, the discerning of spirits; to another, diverse kinds of tongues; to another, interpretation of speeches. [11] But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.
I looked it up:

Fr. Haydock in his very well-respected 1859 Bible Commentary has this to say:

" --- To another faith, by which, says St. Chrysostom, is not here meant a belief of revealed truths, but an humble confidence of working miracles, grounded on faith, and on the power and goodness of God."

Another Catholic Commentary I have at home, originally published in 1953, states that

"[Here] faith is not theological faith, though it is obviously presupposed; rather it is that which sees that here and now God wishes to work a miracle; it is the 'faith to move mountains.'"
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