I'm having a hard time cutting and pasting the article with this phone, but Louie Verricchio wrote, in my opinion, the best analysis of the latest papal interview here:
http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/game-on/
If anyone can paste it over here, I'm sure it'd generate some conversation.
“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes.” – Pope Francis
:doh: " .... Ooops spoke before checking the Italian. A small cut ...there and another there. Press "modify" and correct meself............." :blush:
The holy Father really said "Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza. Tutti fratelli e tutti figli di Dio." Which does not mean "became incarnate in the souls of men" it is closer to "became incarnate to instill the the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men."
I'm pretty sure our Lord descended from Heaven, was born of our Lady and made man for some other purpose than creating sentimental links between guys. That might be a fortunate secondary effect and even secondary purpose - love your neighbor as yourself - but even then, the sentimentalist aspect is not at the fore.
As for the converting of the world..
there is first the "Proselytism is a great foolishness, it doesn't make sense." then "the ideal of a missionary, poor church remains more than valid. This is the church Jesus preached" ???
Now, one might not be quite as familiar with the loftier nuances of the English language or intricacies of the idiom utilized by the translators as one would like to be, but it seems to me that the word "proselytism" has the primary meaning of engaging in the endeavor to convert people to ones' faith. As the dictionary says:
Proselytism /ˈprɒsɨlaɪtɨzəm/ is the act of attempting to convert people to another religion ...
Likewise:
mis·sion·ar·y One who attempts to persuade or convert others to a particular program, doctrine, or set of principles;
or in the adjective meaning: Tending to propagandize or use insistent persuasion.
God is angry with His wayward people.
Time to polish those beads. :pray:
----Corrected after checking translation errors-----
Quote:The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood.
At least this is really a mistranslation. Fr Z analysed the Italian text and it was more like, 'The Son of God became incarnate to instill the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men. Even though He became incarnate also to bring fire on the earth, it really is not the same as the quoted version.
"Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza."
"The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood"
Both straight from La Repubblica one the Italian, one their own English translation
A more literal -though clumsier- translation is
"The Son of God has incarnated himself to instill into the souls of men the feeling of brotherhood "
How sloppy of me. Apologies both to his Holiness and to the readers.
And thanks for pointing it out.
Modifying my post above to remove the inaccuracy.
Having said that, instilling the feeling of brotherhood into the souls of men falls short of the reasons for the incarnation.
As evidenced here, it is and will be the perception among most who bother to read the interview that the La Repubblica translation is THE English version of what the Holy Father said. While it misrepresents his words the perception of what he said will remain and has probably already made its' way through the blogosphere to become the "standard" version. Call me a pessimist but Fr. Z's correction as well as those of others will likely be damage control at best.
Technicalities of translations aside, "feelings of brotherhood" is a shockingly shallow description of the Incarnation. Feelings. Not salvation. Not redemption. Not bringing all to the Father. He said the word "to," so I'm assuming that he used an Italian infinitive, unless there's some way to explain that one away, also.
One of two things, only, is possible:
(1) His Jesuit seminary training was deliberately heterodox, on the part of his superiors; they never even used the word ontology, and they minimized divine nature, redemption,etc.
or
(2) He has rejected what authentic Catholic teaching he did receive, even if all of it was in line with Sacred Tradition.
And whether (1) or (2) is correct, he has embraced the world and rejected the Catholic Church -- its most faithful members, its most core teachings. He is using the language of the world and he is catering to, focusing on, speaking to, everything BUT the Church's needs in the present. It would be as if the Pres of the U.S. invited journalists to the WH on a daily basis, while he discussed Europe, South America, Australia, Africa, and Asia -- his plans for those countries, the needs of those countries, while neglecting the Government shut-down, unemployment, and all the internal affairs which are the primary elements of his job description.
He was right. He "didn't want the job." And he is showing us, every day. He wanted a different job, and he's created that job instead. This is "his revenge."
By the way, if the POTUS did that, there would be demonstrations in American streets, or at least in D.C. One could even call yesterday's automobile terrorism such a demonstration. Perhaps there should be demonstrations in Rome. Then the press would have to cover that, and at least publicize the fact that some of the faithful believe there's Something Rotten in Denmark. (To my knowledge, the secular press has not discussed the possibility that any Catholics are upset over the Pope's words.)
(10-04-2013, 06:49 AM)Dom Hamberg Wrote: [ -> ]“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes.” – Pope Francis
:doh: " .... Ooops spoke before checking the Italian. A small cut ...there and another there. Press "modify" and correct meself............." :blush:
The holy Father really said "Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza. Tutti fratelli e tutti figli di Dio." Which does not mean "became incarnate in the souls of men" it is closer to "became incarnate to instill the the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men."
I'm pretty sure our Lord descended from Heaven, was born of our Lady and made man for some other purpose than creating sentimental links between guys. That might be a fortunate secondary effect and even secondary purpose - love your neighbor as yourself - but even then, the sentimentalist aspect is not at the fore.
From the context, I did not think that he was referring to sentimental links. I thought he was talking about the reality that, due to the Incarnation, all people are children of God by sharing in Christ's Sonship and therefore brothers of each other. This reality of brotherhood is both something we know intellectually but also something we experience in our relationships with others. My Italian isn't that good, but the Latin cognate of sentimento would have the connotation of experience and it would make sense here.
(10-04-2013, 12:27 PM)JayneK Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2013, 06:49 AM)Dom Hamberg Wrote: [ -> ]“The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you. Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes.” – Pope Francis
:doh: " .... Ooops spoke before checking the Italian. A small cut ...there and another there. Press "modify" and correct meself............." :blush:
The holy Father really said "Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza. Tutti fratelli e tutti figli di Dio." Which does not mean "became incarnate in the souls of men" it is closer to "became incarnate to instill the the feeling of brotherhood in the souls of men."
I'm pretty sure our Lord descended from Heaven, was born of our Lady and made man for some other purpose than creating sentimental links between guys. That might be a fortunate secondary effect and even secondary purpose - love your neighbor as yourself - but even then, the sentimentalist aspect is not at the fore.
From the context, I did not think that he was referring to sentimental links. I thought he was talking about the reality that, due to the Incarnation, all people are children of God by sharing in Christ's Sonship and therefore brothers of each other. This reality of brotherhood is both something we know intellectually but also something we experience in our relationships with others. My Italian isn't that good, but the Latin cognate of sentimento would have the connotation of experience and it would make sense here.
Except that that's also completely inaccurate. Whose children were the pharisees, and whose the sons of disobedience of Ephesians 2?