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TONIGHT, Tuesday, October 8, 6PM Central Time, is that debate between Michael Voris and Mark Shea. Please pray that Voris creams him -- and that the debate is recorded and ends up on the internet!

The webpage detailing the debate is here: http://www.aotmclub.com/index.asp?pageID=9&EID=70

I can't imagine it not being recorded

Me neither, fellow Hoosier, but ya never know! I hope there are at least 7 tape recorders there, just to be sure (hahaha  I said "tape recorders." I'm old!)
My husband is going! I'm jealous.  Sticking tongue out at you
Is Mark Shea a sort of progressive Catholic?
Mark Shea is a Professional Catholic, and tows the Politburo line.

tim
I wrote this in a blog some years back.


A Note on Our Catholic Brother across the aisle.

Mark Shea and Summorum Pontificum

The Holy Father's Motu Proprio, Summorum Pontificum, as expected, has been received with great alacrity and positively by those who long awaited the restoration of the Traditional Latin Mass codified by
Pope St. Pius V.

Also, as expected, the reactionaries (who hold that the Catholic Church was established by decree of the Second Vatican Council in 1965), have had and are still having their field day in decrying -- to say the least,
criticizing -- the mind and motive of Benedict XVI.

Among these reactionaries and revisionists are neo-Catholics who are converts from evangelical and fundamental Protestantism, who, it seems, have not divested themselves of their protestant baggage and have completely embraced the Catholic ethos, but have brought their excess baggage along with them after crossing the Tiber. Now that they are "firmly entrenched" and have become bona fide citizens of the City of God, they believe that it is incumbent upon themselves to arrogate the appellation, "Catholic Apologist," and thus have out forward their interpretation of what Catholicism is.

Notorious among these neo-Catholics is Mark Shea, who has gone as far as insulting faithful Catholics (who he labels as "those traditionalists") who are moving in droves to the "restored" ancient Liturgy of the Latin Church. Without understanding what the Immemorial Mass is (described by Fr. Faber as "The most beautiful thing this side of Heaven"), Shea has gone even to the point of alluding to a fixation one may have for shoes (!) that a Catholic looks to the liturgy of the Mass.

Is Mark Shea a Catholic, or does he have a peculiar brand of Catholicism? If one reads what he wrote in the article, "Some Thoughts on Motu Proprio Mania," one would come out believing Shea does not know Church history (a commonality of Protestants). "To be deep in history is to ceased being a Protestant," as Ven. John Cardinal Newman once posited.

To the reference of "shoes," he says, "The point of shoes is not to notice them, but to walk in them. Shoes you constantly notice are Bad Shoes. Liturgy you focus on is liturgy that's not doing its job, which is to refer us to God, not to itself." Mark Shea has got it backwards. The N.O. is all about celebrating "man made god," feel good about oneself, meet to socialize within the Liturgy itself.

In the defense of the Novus Ordo Missae we always find it amusing to hear the platitude, "I'm not like the others, I attend a reverent Novus Ordo Mass" -- something which is getting rarer and rarer to find these days.

Shea is still inprisoned in the cell of his protestant background, and is yet to become fully Catholic. We pray that this should be forthcoming very soon. He hasn't completely crossed the Tiber. Can he swim, or is the current too strong?

Read "Roman Protestants" here:  http://www.alcazar.net/roman_protestants.html
(10-08-2013, 07:47 AM)PolishTrad Wrote: [ -> ]Is Mark Shea a sort of progressive Catholic?

I would not describe Shea as a progressive.  Rather, he is a neo-conservative who is at the vanguard of those wishing to maintain the status quo (or at least not let it liberalize too fast) and is one who seems to believe that there are really no major problems in the Church; and even if there were, they are in no way related to Vatican II, the liturgy, catechesis, etc. 

He has regularly criticized traditional Catholics, sometimes with good reason, but quite often without.  From my perspective, as noted by another poster above, he seems to be one who accepts the doctrinal aspects of the Faith but who has little to no appreciation for those things which create a Catholic culture, or for the history of the Church in terms of her 'small t' traditions and the externals of the Faith. 


In regards to the "debate", I am hopeful, but not confident, that Voris will keep things factual and respectful.  Though he often does good work, he is prone, very prone, to hyperbole and carrying on in such a way that it can and often does cloud the central aspects of the message, which is most often a good one (see his recent first 5 episodes of the "Dispatches" series for an example).  If he can stick to facts, avoid logical fallacies and personal attacks, he might do some good tonight for the cause of the Church.  If not, he will only make it easier to marginalize the cause for Tradition and the counter-reform which is so desperately needed today.  There is a time and place which may be appropriate for calling out the bishops, etc. but a public debate with a fellow Catholic is probably not it. The facts of the Church today are such that they paint the picture of the state of crisis we are in quite well without having to spin them much at all.  Hopefully, Mr. Voris has done some good debate prep prior to tonight and can avoid such things. 
Is this charitable, is this Catholic??  >sad

Praying to God that Voris smite Shea in the debate? I may be a huge Voris fan, but Shea is our Catholic brother whether you agree with him or not. He is out there and is trying to do his best to spread the Gospel. Sure it may not be to all of our liking, but he certainly isn't spouting heresy and he's not against the Church.

I will pray that both men learn from this experience and learn from each other and grow in Holiness together through the same Christ our Lord.



Shame on all of you who rejoice at the suffering of a fellow Catholic brother.
(10-08-2013, 11:27 AM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Is this charitable, is this Catholic??   >sad

Praying to God that Voris smite Shea in the debate? I may be a huge Voris fan, but Shea is our Catholic brother whether you agree with him or not. He is out there and is trying to do his best to spread the Gospel. Sure it may not be to all of our liking, but he certainly isn't spouting heresy and he's not against the Church.

I will pray that both men learn from this experience and learn from each other and grow in Holiness together through the same Christ our Lord.



Shame on all of you who rejoice at the suffering of a fellow Catholic brother.
Can you not pray that (I don't know whether you American trads consider him a good candidate or not, so it's just an example) Rick Santorum may smite Nancy Pelosi so that she won't be so triumphant in her rejection of Catholicism?
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