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Is this really the far right in Poland, I wonder?

I am placing in bold the only reference this articles gives to their objectionable attitudes (apart from patriotism).

To be clear: I am not condoning violence - I am just wondering aloud if, in terms of attitudes, these people are guilty of anything apart from being traditional.

Or in other words, if they are far-right why does the article not say they are neo-nazi, anti-semitic etc?  Why is the main thing it says, besides patriotism, my bit in bold?


Poland: Far-right rioters leave trail of destruction in Warsaw
11/11 18:41 CET


Polish riot police used rubber bullets on Monday to break up groups of masked far-right youths who threw firecrackers and set fire to parked cars during a nationalist march through the centre of the capital.

The march is an annual event to commemorate Poland’s national Independence Day, and for the third year in a row it broke down into running battles in the middle of Warsaw between rioters and police.

Several thousand right-wing protesters began their march peacefully – watched by their own stewards in orange vests and with a police helicopter circling above.

The violence started when a few dozen youths, their faces covered by balaclavas and football scarves, broke off from the procession into a side street and started attacking a building where left-wing radicals occupied a squat.

Riot police moved in, and came under attack from youths throwing firecrackers and stones. As the rioters dispersed, several cars were set on fire. The violence underscores the faultlines in Polish society.

Many Poles have grown wealthier in the past few years, but a minority feel alienated and believe traditional values on marriage, abortion and the church have been swept aside.


“I believe that Polishness is under threat,” said one marcher, Grzegorz, who said he was 30. “The Polish government is incompetent and a threat to Polishness.” Before the violence broke out, marchers chanted: “God, honour, fatherland!” and waved the red-and-white national flag. Another protester, who gave his name as Mateusz, said he had come to “manifest my patriotism.”

Police spokesman Mariusz Sokolowski told Reuters that officers had used rubber bullets, truncheons and pepper spray against the rioters. Polish media reported that two police officers had been injured. Several people were arrested.

A Reuters reporter said one section of the crowd headed in the direction of the Russian embassy, but riot police formed a cordon around the building.

Many Polish nationalists dislike Russia, their country’s former colonial ruler. The principal target of the rioters appeared to be any manifestation of left-wing, liberal views. After the crowd had moved on from the squat, now littered with burned debris and broken glass, one of the squatters accused the police of failing to hold back the far-right protesters. “You have unleashed fascist dogs on us,” he said.

Later, the rioters moved on to Zbawiciela Square, one of the most bohemian areas of central Warsaw, where students usually hang out in trendy pavement cafes. An arch across the middle of the square, decorated in rainbow colours with artificial flowers, had become a symbol of tolerance and diversity. On Monday evening, after the rioters had passed through and set it on fire, all that was left of the arch was a charred, steel skeleton. REUTERS

Copyright © 2013 euronews

Valid point. It sounds like a protest more against liberal government policies.  Anyone who stands against left leaning policy is a defender of morality and values; tradition and the church will never be far away from this. It becomes easy pickings for those who hate us to parallel us with anarchy. I assume that Poland has not moved as far left as German Bishops?

An interesting statement about how they feel they are losing their "Polishness", as "Polishness",  like Italian and Irish, would be seen as inherently tied to the church and all it stands for. 
Sounds like leftist agent-provacateurs to me. Smashing up your own community seems so, unconservative.
They should have marched to the sound of Gravelands " Thousand Swords" or "Celtic Winter".
(11-12-2013, 09:08 AM)frater Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like leftist agent-provacateurs to me. Smashing up your own community seems so, unconservative.

That was my initial thought too.
I wish someone from Poland could clarify this for us.

PolishTrad are you there? Or perhaps for whatever reason you are not inclined to comment.

I think Eastern Europe may have many with very strong feelings in this regard and I for one wonder if any real hope for Europe lies in Eastern Europe ...
Okay,
so I attended the march a year ago. This year for some reasons connected with my studies I couldn't go and I do not regret. Generally speaking, I believe that for some at least three years there has not been a person in the march that would be neo-nazi etc. The march is organised by the more radical (as the name suggests) 'National-Radical Camp' and the less radical 'All-Poland Youth'. Some former members of the latter used to be our MPs. Officially, the march is organised by 'National Movement', a merger of the mentioned organisations. The reason why the article does not say the attendants were 'neo-nazi' or 'anti-semitic' is because far-right need not be associated with either. I am neither neo-nazi nor anti-semitic (unless being anti-Zionist and anti-Rabbinic Judaism counts), and yet I would say I'm far right-winger.

Now, as for the riots, the reports are, I think, 100% accurate. I saw videos in the TV, on Youtube and elsewhere. I was in Warsaw last year and even though I was surrounded by regular people, I heard voices vulgarly offending the police who were only doing their job. Many, many people who attend the march are there only to beat some leftards and devastate Warsaw. These are those types of guys that drink beer in front of their blocks of flats, sell drugs, but yet feel they're superior to left-wingers (maybe they are, but I would say both groups are worthless). The leaders of the National Movement are sort of intellectual (although some are forever students who cannot graduate from a poor university). However, football hooligans and hoodies constitute some 30% of people walking in the march. That's much. I only skimmed OP's post, and maybe it was not in the article: hooligans attacked a squat as well. I don't really care about squaters, but still, to attack them without any reason is plainly stupid. I can also add that there was no police near the squat to secure it at that time.

Destroying cars was also there, you can see photos anywhere you want. And, what prompted me to write that I do not regret not being in Warsaw was arson of a sentry box of the Russian embassy. Polish nationalists before 1918 were always pro-Russian. I don't know whence it comes but nowadays these nationalist hooligans are so anti-Russian that I, a Russophile, simply cannot go in one march with them. In 2012, during the UEFA Euro, the same 'patriots' shouted to Russian fans that their country is 'Russian whore'. The country that bans homosexual propaganda and tries to limit abortion, where sacrilegists are punished and the Church is connected with the state. I think it might be influenced by Smoleńsk airplane crash that about 50% of Poles think was an assassination (myself included up to about a year ago).

As for the rainbow: I don't care about it really, it was rebuilt 4 times already? I guess. Although I'm not a type who sees sodomites and satanists everywhere - as this rainbow need not necessarily represent LGBT - it is just ugly. I don't think setting fire to anything is good, but I wouldn't build such an installation at Zbawiciela Square. Zbawiciela means "Saviour's. You now know why.

Do you want to know anything else?

It now occured to my that OP might have been asking whether all 'far-right' groups' guilt is being patriotic and traditional. I might be biased, but I'd say that for the vast majority, yes. There are, of course, some (100? 200?) young skin homies who worship Rudolf Hess but nobody takes them seriously. Even this horrible National-Radical Camp, and - even more radical - National Revival of Poland are just anti-globalist nationalists, who are not anti-Semitic but anti-Zionist. And some sedevacantist by the way (Fr Rafal Trytek of whom you might have heard attended some of NRP's rallies).

"formerbuddhist" Wrote:They should have marched to the sound of Gravelands " Thousand Swords" or "Celtic Winter".
Have you ever listened to the joint album of Honor and Graveland? Grin

Quote:I assume that Poland has not moved as far left as German Bishops?
No, a year ago one bishop supported the march. And now the President of the Polish Episcopal Conference is under constant attack from left-wing media for speaking out that gender ideology is responsible for much evil. Although I have to admit that he himself is not without guilt, as he once suggested (with a dementi issued only a few hours lated) that sometimes it is children that force adults into commiting pedophile acts. He said that. But then apologised and explained, so for me he's OK. I have this impression that he might have said the TLM; however, I could be mistaken. Anyway, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Polish bishops are, compared to their Western colleagues, very right wing.
Thank you, PolishTrad!



(11-13-2013, 06:58 PM)PolishTrad Wrote: [ -> ]Do you want to know anything else?

It now occured to my that OP might have been asking whether all 'far-right' groups' guilt is being patriotic and traditional. I might be biased, but I'd say that for the vast majority, yes.

Yes, this was indeed my main interest.

I think what I am most interested in is not the violent hoodlum stuff, but the general disaffection with liberalism the article claims many in Poland feel.

I know so very little of your culture ... but am indeed curious if you have deeply traditional bishops and a significant deeply traditional movement in Poland that will not tolerate the destruction of tradition and the culture of death.

BIG question ... but I wonder what you see the future of this movement in Poland is, indeed the future of your country.

You have World Youth Day coming soon ... What are the young Polish Catholics generally like compared to the West. Very traditional? Or pretty liberal?

I am fascinated ...
(11-13-2013, 07:25 PM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you, PolishTrad!



(11-13-2013, 06:58 PM)PolishTrad Wrote: [ -> ]Do you want to know anything else?

It now occured to my that OP might have been asking whether all 'far-right' groups' guilt is being patriotic and traditional. I might be biased, but I'd say that for the vast majority, yes.

Yes, this was indeed my main interest.

I think what I am most interested in is not the violent hoodlum stuff, but the general disaffection with liberalism the article claims many in Poland feel.
Many do, but it is so in the USA and any random country as well. Perhaps because we are a Catholic nation, the level of conservatism is somewhat higher. Perhaps we (as a nation) are more discouraged by economic liberalism that indeed has forced many Poles to live for extremely low salaries. Trade unions usually protest against economic changes, but also virtually always employ Catholic imagery as well. There is a famous radio, perhaps you know it, called Radio Maryja (Radio Mary). It is very conservative when it comes to social views, but pretty modernist as far as liturgy etc. is concerned. But for the first reason they used to be called "Polish Lefebvrists", which always has made me laugh. Nevertheless, they're the best major Catholic media in Poland and it's why it should be promoted even by Trads. People listening to this radio are disaffected with both economic and cultural liberalism. I don't listen to it, and also am from a middle-class family, so I could never complain about money, but I share Radio Maryja's position about economic reforms. I once was a conservative liberal - whatever it means - but now, thanks God, I'm not.

Quote:I know so very little of your culture ... but am indeed curious if you have deeply traditional bishops and a significant deeply traditional movement in Poland that will not tolerate the destruction of tradition and the culture of death.
Depends what you mean by traditionalism. If by this term you understand 'Tridentism' and 'Pre-Concilliarism', then no. Neither are bishops traditional (ironically, bishops who are liked by liberal media said the most TLMs after VII) nor are there many trads in Poland. There are over 900k Catholic in my archdiocese and when the Sunday TLM is attended by 60, then it is very many. I don't know how many people go to SSPX, but probably it's no more than another one sixty. However, a slight majority of Novus Ordo Catholics are politically conservative, opposed to abortion etc., so in this area they're natural allies. A Catholic portal that is very anti-SSPX (although sympathetic to the TLM as such) is also the major pro-life force in Poland. And is now criticised by more liberal Catholics for 'not representing Francis' type of Catholicism'. I think most trads in Poland are concerned with liturgy and are, of course, critical of our 'beloved' John Paul II, but nowhere in Polish Internet will you find pages-long discussions on BoD or Young Earth Creationism and stuff. I would say Polish trads are, compared to Americans, quite moderate (that's OK for me).

Quote:BIG question ... but I wonder what you see the future of this movement in Poland is, indeed the future of your country.
If you're referring to the nationalist movement, then I think it can gain some vote share in upcoming European elections (if they run). However, the major 'right-wing' (in fact Christian democrat) party will never allow someone to the right of themselves to have much to say, so perhaps they can make it to the Parliament, but there they will only be pawns. That's why more radical nationalists dislike the groups that organise the march: for trying to win some seats.
If you're referring to the trad movement, then I think it will gradually grow, and perhaps some bigger liturgical abuses will be eliminated because regular Catholics will learn that the TLM is not a posh anti-Semitic gathering. But in general I predict that for at least the next 10 years virtually nothing will change much. And as I said, when it comes to social issues, about half of Polish NO Catholics are conservative (pro-life, anti-gay propaganda) and half are liberal (promote abortion status quo or even 'liberalisation'). I think in France or Germany, there may be at most 15% of really conservative Catholics who would oppose left-wing bills.
And as for the future of Poland. I have no doubt we will be slowly moving towards the Western standard; i.e. LGBT marriages or unions, abortion on demand, in vitro. But not that fast. I predict we'll be like Spain no earlier than in 25 years. A guess, of course.

Quote:You have World Youth Day coming soon ... What are the young Polish Catholics generally like compared to the West. Very traditional? Or pretty liberal?

I am fascinated ...
I will probably be at the WYD, but I'm thinking about attending FSSP (which has a big community in Cracow) masses then. That's because even though those more concious young Catholics are opposed to culture of death etc., liturgically, they are very Neocatechumenal Way-like, play guitars and whatever you like. It might be because of Evangelical influence (e.g. Pentecostal Protestants are very conservative about politics, but... you know. Speaking in tongues and stuff.
If you ask about the average young Polish Catholic, he or she is definitely more conservative than such a Catholic in France or Austria. But it doesn't mean they care about contraception or pre-marital sex ban.
(11-14-2013, 06:58 AM)PolishTrad Wrote: [ -> ]Perhaps because we are a Catholic nation, the level of conservatism is somewhat higher. Perhaps we (as a nation) are more discouraged by economic liberalism that indeed has forced many Poles to live for extremely low salaries. Trade unions usually protest against economic changes, but also virtually always employ Catholic imagery as well. There is a famous radio, perhaps you know it, called Radio Maryja (Radio Mary). It is very conservative when it comes to social views, but pretty modernist as far as liturgy etc. is concerned. But for the first reason they used to be called "Polish Lefebvrists", which always has made me laugh. Nevertheless, they're the best major Catholic media in Poland and it's why it should be promoted even by Trads. People listening to this radio are disaffected with both economic and cultural liberalism. I don't listen to it, and also am from a middle-class family, so I could never complain about money, but I share Radio Maryja's position about economic reforms. I once was a conservative liberal - whatever it means - but now, thanks God, I'm not.

All very interesting. Thank you! The last bit is not quite clear to me, though.

Can you say exactly what Radio Maryja's saying about economic reforms and how it has changed your thinking?

I think you might be saying that they are socially conservative but against unbridled capitalism (i.e. economic liberalism) - and that has led you to rethinking unbridled capitalism. Is that right?

Quote:Depends what you mean by traditionalism. If by this term you understand 'Tridentism' and 'Pre-Concilliarism', then no. Neither are bishops traditional (ironically, bishops who are liked by liberal media said the most TLMs after VII) nor are there many trads in Poland.

There are over 900k Catholic in my archdiocese and when the Sunday TLM is attended by 60, then it is very many. I don't know how many people go to SSPX, but probably it's no more than another one sixty.

However, a slight majority of Novus Ordo Catholics are politically conservative, opposed to abortion etc., so in this area they're natural allies. A Catholic portal that is very anti-SSPX (although sympathetic to the TLM as such) is also the major pro-life force in Poland. And is now criticised by more liberal Catholics for 'not representing Francis' type of Catholicism'.

....



If you're referring to the trad movement, then I think it will gradually grow, and perhaps some bigger liturgical abuses will be eliminated because regular Catholics will learn that the TLM is not a posh anti-Semitic gathering.

But in general I predict that for at least the next 10 years virtually nothing will change much. And as I said, when it comes to social issues, about half of Polish NO Catholics are conservative (pro-life, anti-gay propaganda) and half are liberal (promote abortion status quo or even 'liberalisation').

I think in France or Germany, there may be at most 15% of really conservative Catholics who would oppose left-wing bills.

And as for the future of Poland. I have no doubt we will be slowly moving towards the Western standard; i.e. LGBT marriages or unions, abortion on demand, in vitro. But not that fast. I predict we'll be like Spain no earlier than in 25 years. A guess, of course.

This is both good and bad to hear ...

I guess somewhere in my head, PolishTrad, I have nurtured this probably crazy hope that just as your country dismantled the Soviet bloc, maybe your country could also trip up the EU.

I still find myself hopefully thinking that where you have such a large conservative Catholic population, slight majority compared to as you say 15% of France or Germany (maximum!), that your country could make a difference to the rest of the EU drive towards a thoroughly liberal-secularised society ...

Yes, I have have had crazy hopes maybe about Poland and other countries in the East like Hungary. I am not at all sure what Lithuania, Slovakia are like.

Something that completely fascinates me is how many Poles there are in Ireland.

3-4% of the population!

No-one is sure how much they're staying here permanently and integrating or leaving.

Personally I hope they're staying!

This country is so on a fast track to joining the rest of the Anglosphere ... I think we need them!

Quote:I will probably be at the WYD, but I'm thinking about attending FSSP (which has a big community in Cracow) masses then. That's because even though those more concious young Catholics are opposed to culture of death etc., liturgically, they are very Neocatechumenal Way-like, play guitars and whatever you like. It might be because of Evangelical influence (e.g. Pentecostal Protestants are very conservative about politics, but... you know. Speaking in tongues and stuff.
If you ask about the average young Polish Catholic, he or she is definitely more conservative than such a Catholic in France or Austria. But it doesn't mean they care about contraception or pre-marital sex ban.

Good to hear about the conservatism there. I really do wonder if your country can play a healing role for the EU and of course the youth are vital to that.

I pray the FSSP makes many strides forward. I think you have the Institute of the Good Shepherd or Bon Pasteur  somewhere as well ...

Final question: It seems you think Poland will just become like the rest of the EU. Do you think there is any hope of Poland, possibly with other nations in the East, helping to change the EU for the better?



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