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I've been to (evangelical) bible college and what it describes is exactly it. PDA's (public displays of affection) were seriously frowned upon, and could result in academic suspension. The only kids on campus having sex were the married ones... which was not unusual. Easily 10-15% of the under 21's were married, which in this day and age is unusual. Most of those kids would be engaged to be married if not already married by graduation.

But I think that's part of it too, is that evangelicals tend to marry younger, from what I've observed. Believe me, they are very sex-obsessed, even moreso than Catholics I think, but it's culturally acceptable for them to marry young (it's also culturally acceptable for most of them to use birth control pills while still in school, but that's another thread). I knew a few that got married at 18, still in high school (literally). I find Catholics and seculars look at you if you're crazy if you get married before 30.

But those are the ones that go to college. I knew scads of evangelicals that didn't go to college and "fell away" and had babies out of wedlock. Bible college isn't called "marriage school" for nothing.

(11-27-2013, 04:22 PM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]This is more evidence the sexual revolution ruined Catholics. This shows the parents of these Children have been lost long ago. Either the parents were never catechized properly or they are Catholics in name only.

As my girls are getting older, I find I've been reflecting on the messages I got about sex from my parents. My mom grew up Catholic, but has been nominally-to-non practicing for as long as I can remember. She has 2 sisters - both were unwed and pregnant at 18. My mom was unwed and pregnant at 19. It was the 70's.

I doubt my mom and her sisters were ever taught about sexual morality other than "don't do it". She grew up in a relatively Traditional Catholic home, went to Catholic school in the 60's, and yet she is ... I hate to use the word ignorant to describe mom but really she is... ignorant of Church teachings on sexuality.

I'm wondering if it's the culture of the time clashing with traditional values. Sex wasn't talked about, but yet the 60's happened when sex was everywhere. Is it maybe a case of the way we did things didn't keep pace with the new needs of the secular culture, and disaster happened because of it?
Tim I would be very happy for you to "spiel" away about what you saw with later generations. It would be interesting and helpful I think.


(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the article is untrue -- i.e., I believe that evangelicals are much more apt to refrain from sexual sins than the typical Catholic is. I think a number of things are at the root of this:

1)  Evangelicals take Christ seriously and don't at all underestimate the power of Christ to actually WORK in people's lives. They don't approach the Faith through the head RATHER THAN through the heart. Ideally, both the heart and head should be satisfied, and the true Faith, practiced well and taught well would take care of things just fine. The NO lovey-dovey stuff leaves out the head; the Toxic Trad approach leaves out the heart. The TRUE trad way deals with BOTH.

2)  Catholics are not only not catechized properly, they're too often anti-catechized.

3)  Evangelicals have groups for their kids to be involved with, which creates a peer group that isn't pressuring them into sin and which allows them to have normal social lives.  In the Catholic world, it's Mass on Sundays -- and that's it, typically. What groups there are tend to be bogus, condescending nonsense that centers around "youth Masses" that don't inspire a sense of the Sacred at all.

4)  Catholics, as a group, don't read Scripture often enough, well enough, and in a way that inspires them to re-realize the Truths of the Church.


I envision a Catholic culture in which  traditional Catholicism is preserved and handed down 100% intact, in which the traditional Sacramental rites are available everywhere, in which neither a hyper-emphasis on the heart OR the head prevails, in which there are things at the parish and diocese levels for people -- including KIDS, esp. TEENS -- to DO and find each other (same with stay-at-home Moms who want to network and find friends), in which Bible Studies done the Catholic way are everywhere, in which service to others -- inc. non-Catholics -- is stressed (and acts as a means to evangelize), in which sex is spoken of with joy, without shame, and maybe even with some humor --  AND as something for married folks, and in which no Catholic ever has to feel alone in the world.

Ideally, there'd be a rebirth of parish-based neighborhoods, but that's likely a long way off...


 
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society. 



Fascinating. I think this is pretty much what the people at Christendom College are aiming at. And I suspect achieving considerably. I suspect CC is far more like an Evangelical college/community than other Catholic colleges. In fact, I think I shall cross post this over to the Christendom College thread and see what anyone says ...
(11-28-2013, 01:24 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]Tim I would be very happy for you to "spiel" away about what you saw with later generations. It would be interesting and helpful I think.


(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the article is untrue -- i.e., I believe that evangelicals are much more apt to refrain from sexual sins than the typical Catholic is. I think a number of things are at the root of this:

1)  Evangelicals take Christ seriously and don't at all underestimate the power of Christ to actually WORK in people's lives. They don't approach the Faith through the head RATHER THAN through the heart. Ideally, both the heart and head should be satisfied, and the true Faith, practiced well and taught well would take care of things just fine. The NO lovey-dovey stuff leaves out the head; the Toxic Trad approach leaves out the heart. The TRUE trad way deals with BOTH.

2)  Catholics are not only not catechized properly, they're too often anti-catechized.

3)  Evangelicals have groups for their kids to be involved with, which creates a peer group that isn't pressuring them into sin and which allows them to have normal social lives.  In the Catholic world, it's Mass on Sundays -- and that's it, typically. What groups there are tend to be bogus, condescending nonsense that centers around "youth Masses" that don't inspire a sense of the Sacred at all.

4)  Catholics, as a group, don't read Scripture often enough, well enough, and in a way that inspires them to re-realize the Truths of the Church.


I envision a Catholic culture in which  traditional Catholicism is preserved and handed down 100% intact, in which the traditional Sacramental rites are available everywhere, in which neither a hyper-emphasis on the heart OR the head prevails, in which there are things at the parish and diocese levels for people -- including KIDS, esp. TEENS -- to DO and find each other (same with stay-at-home Moms who want to network and find friends), in which Bible Studies done the Catholic way are everywhere, in which service to others -- inc. non-Catholics -- is stressed (and acts as a means to evangelize), in which sex is spoken of with joy, without shame, and maybe even with some humor --  AND as something for married folks, and in which no Catholic ever has to feel alone in the world.

Ideally, there'd be a rebirth of parish-based neighborhoods, but that's likely a long way off...


 
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society. 



Fascinating. I think this is pretty much what the people at Christendom College are aiming at. And I suspect achieving considerably. I suspect CC is far more like an Evangelical college/community than other Catholic colleges. In fact, I think I shall cross post this over to the Christendom College thread and see what anyone says ...

Where is the Christendom College thread? I have not seen it. Thanks.
(11-28-2013, 01:24 AM)PrairieMom Wrote: [ -> ](snip)
I doubt my mom and her sisters were ever taught about sexual morality other than "don't do it". She grew up in a relatively Traditional Catholic home, went to Catholic school in the 60's, and yet she is ... I hate to use the word ignorant to describe mom but really she is... ignorant of Church teachings on sexuality.

See, that "just don't do it" doesn't cut it. Not at ALL, not even CLOSE. That coupled with coyness, an unwillingness to talk very frankly (and age-appropriately -- rather, maturity-appropriately),  and talking about sex as if it's "dirty" or shameful is the recipe for neurosis, that "madonna-whore" complex, and a married life that isn't as fulfilling as it could be and should be. Throw ignorance into the mix, and we end up with disaster on our hands. Top all that off with some of the "weirdisms" that the Toxic Trad types raise their kids with (e.g., making them dress like Laura Ingalls or whatever, and apparently doing everything in their power to make them feel like social freaks), and we've got disaster squared.

I think drama can do a LOT in terms of role-modeling so folks can learn how to deal with things and so that culture is changed (I think that latter is so obvious, it'd take a person born without a brain to not see it). I have a dream (or had a dream, depending on how depressed I am at a given moment) of writing little "playlets" that explain what I'm trying to get across -- little "snippets of life" that can teach people how to deal with this stuff (and many other things) without having to read a treatise.  As an example, with regard to what I'm talking about when it comes to dealing with sex, imagine these scenarios:

Scenario One: Toxic Trad Deals With 10-year old Kid Asking About Sex

Kid: Mom, Jason from next door said something about sex, but I don't know what he means. What's he talking about?

Mom:  Jason is talking to you about SEX? Well, you're not going to be playing with HIM anymore! You're too young to ask about such things. Now go wash up for dinner.

OR

Mom: Sex is a gift of God designed for procreation.

Kid: Procreation?

Mom: Yes, the making of babies.

Kid: Oh. But Jason was talking about it like it was -- oh, I dunno.. like it was -- I dunno...

Mom: Like it was just for fun?

Kid: I guess.

Mom: Sex isn't meant for "fun." It's not a sport. It's a very serious matter that you shouldn't worry about until you're older. All you need to know is that sex is for making babies. Now go wash up for dinner.


Scenario Two:  Secular Talks to 10-year old Kid about Sex

Kid: Mom, Jason from next door said something about sex, but I don't know what he means. What's he talking about?

Mom: I was wondering when this question would come up... Sit down, kid, and let's have a chat. Sex is something so wonderful! It's when two people come together and become as close as they can possibly be. [Mom now explains the basic mechanics]  When you fall in love someday, you will undoubtedly have sex with the person you love, and it will be beautiful.  But before you do that, there are things you need to know in order to be safe! [Mom then explains about HIV-AIDS, condoms, the Pill, etc.]

Kid: So when two people have sex, they can make a baby?

Mom:  Well, if it's a man and a woman who have sex, yes. Sometimes, women have sex with women, and men have sex with men. And that's also a beautiful thing!


Scenario Two:  A Person I Consider a Sane Catholic Talks to 10-year old Kid about Sex

Kid: Mom, Jason from next door said something about sex, but I don't know what he means. What's he talking about?

Mom: Here, sit down and I'll explain it to you! Want some cookies while we talk?   Remember when I taught you about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

Kid:  Uh-huh...

Mom:  Well, remember when God blessed them by telling them to "be fruitful and multiply"?

Kid: I think so...

Mom:  Well, what that means is that God was blessing them by wishing that Adam and his wife, Eve, have lots of babies! "Sex" is how babies are made. That's how Adam and Eve made their babies and it's how everyone who's even been born -- even you! -- was made: through sex.

Kid: Um, OK.... but what is it?

Mom:  [Mom explains the mechanics of sex using proper anatomical terms, with no trace of shame or weirdness on her face. At this point, she's just teaching Science]

Kid: Why would anyone want to do THAT??

Mom:  Well, here's the other thing about sex:  in addition to making babies, which is the main reason for it, sex also brings two people really, really close together. I know you won't understand this now, but soon enough you'll realize that sex is WONDERFUL and FUN!  It feels really good! God made it that way so that people would have sex together! But here's the thing:  it's only for a man and a woman who are married to each other.

Kid:  Why?

Mom:  Well, one reason is because babies come from sex, and a baby needs a Mamma and a Daddy, right? And Moms and Dads are supposed to be married to each other. That's how God planned it! That's how families are made!  When people have sex and they are not married, a baby might come -- but that baby won't have a married Mamma and Daddy being together, and making sure the baby grows up safely. Another reason is simply this:  Because of that and for other reasons, God, through His Church, says that is the only time people should have sex:  when they're married. It's His way of protecting babies and the family.

Kid:  Hmm.. OK...

Mom:  When God tells us to do something, we have to do it. That is reason enough to do something! But there are always other good reasons for what God says that we can understand a lot more easily, like what I just told you about babies needing Mommies and Daddies.

Kid: Why do people have sex if they're not married then, like what Jason was talking about?

Mom:  Well, some people don't listen to God, and they do what's fun for them no matter what God says. Remember when I just told you that sex is fun and wonderful?

Kid: Yeah.

Mom:  Well, it is. And some people sin and hurt God's feelings by not listening to Him and having that sort of fun when they're not supposed to.  Things can be good and beautiful -- but still need to be done in the right way or else they can become dangerous.  Think of a campfire. Remember when we went camping?

Kid: Yeah... that was fun! Can we go camping again soon???

Mom: We'll talk about that later. Right now, I just want you to think of that campfire. Remember how pretty it was? How warm it was? Remember how it cooked our food for us?

Kid: Uh-huh.

Mom:  That fire was a good thing because we kept it under control. We had sand under the fire, we put rocks around the fire pit, and when we were done with the fire, we threw more sand on top and waited to make sure it was all out before we left -- remember?

Kid: Yeah.

Mom:  Now, why did we do that? What would have happened if we'd made a fire but didn't do it the right way -- if we didn't put rocks around it, and didn't throw sand over it when we were done...?

Kid:  A BIG fire coulda started! It coulda been a fire that burned down the whole forest we were camping in!

Mom:  Exactly!  And it's the same sort of thing with sex. Sex between a man and woman who are married to each other is sex done the right way, and, like our campfire, it's beautiful, and fun, and warm and -- just awesome!  But sex outside of marriage is like not being careful with a campfire and risking burning down the entire forest!  A campfire not done right might be "fun" in some ways, but it always leads to disaster. Of course, instead of a forest burning down, sex done the wrong way leads to babies without Daddies and Mommies, to displeasing God and hurting His Heart, and to lots of other problems you'll learn about soon enough... Does this make sense?

__________________________________________________________________________

See what I mean? The Puritany coyness stuff just annoys the heck outta me because I see it as truly dangerous. What the Toxic Trad Mom did was make a big "mystery" out of sex and tainted it all with shame and guilt -- even likely making the kid feel guilty for even asking about it and ensuring he won't be asking about it again. The secular Mom -- well, we all know what's wrong with that.  But the third approach is sane and balanced and acknowledges that, hey, sex IS fun. I mean, that's why people do it. If it weren't fun, people wouldn't. Seems like a no-brainer. And kids have brains, I assure you. It shows sex for what it is meant for (both the procreative and unitive aspects), doesn't make the kid feel like he's a bad person for asking about it, doesn't insult his intelligence, doesn't assault his innocence while definitely dealing with his ignorance,  leaves the idea of asking questions later wide open because he got honest answers without weird body language letting him know he was freaking the Mom out, and leaves the kid knowing the Truth: that sex IS beautiful and fun and wonderful -- BUT for married people only, thereby giving him something to look forward to if he ends up having a vocation to marriage. And when/if he does get married, he'll have a healthy attitude toward loving his wife in that way. THAT'S how it's supposed to be.

As an aside:  While the "Dr. Ruths" of the world have done us no favors whatsoever, I sometimes think we need a Catholic version of "sex therapists" -- folks firmly grounded in Catholic moral teaching and who don't play the Coy Game filled with euphemisms and outdated language. Sex is often, typically, a big part of married life, and Catholics are together 'til death do them part. There should be Catholic resources for "frigid women," men who have erectile dysfunction, a married Catholic who's dealing with the emotional effects of sexual abuse, porn addicts, married Catholics dealing with fetishes, or a couple who just don't know how to please each other sexually etc. If we want Catholic marriages to last, I think sex needs to be spoken about in a mature and straight-up way -- a way that acknowledges the importance of prayer and the Sacraments as helps for it all, one that considers the SOULS of the couple involved.  As it is now, Catholics are pretty much either on their own -- or stuck with secular therapists who wouldn't frown on horrible things like bringing some third person into the bedroom to "spice things up" or whatever -- bleh!

Yes indeed to Vox and the need to resituate therapeutic insight in a Catholic sacramental context. Yet Puritanism is so ingrained in particularly American culture that the real danger you observe here  is also entirely understandable ... I find myself thinking a lot about this mentality you describe and realising it is sadly inevitable and going to take a lot of time, patience and work to overcome.

(11-28-2013, 01:52 AM)DeoGratias72 Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-28-2013, 01:24 AM)Roger Buck Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society. 




Fascinating. I think this is pretty much what the people at Christendom College are aiming at. And I suspect achieving considerably. I suspect CC is far more like an Evangelical college/community than other Catholic colleges. In fact, I think I shall cross post this over to the Christendom College thread and see what anyone says ...

Where is the Christendom College thread? I have not seen it. Thanks.

It's here. A strange mixture of a lot of weird conspiracy stuff by people who think Christendom College involves  a fascist threat to the security of the United States of America (I'm _not_ kidding) PLUS a lot of really beautiful, inspiring things about the place ...

http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...238.0.html
Boy o boy you've just uncovered a missing link. My parents and all of my age group's parents had no idea about how to discuss sex. They believed, that like them, we'd figure it out when we got married, and right now, because 18,19,20,21, or so was close they'd say "just don't do it." This had worked for centuries because marriage was at a young age. After HS, you were considered an adult, a young one but an adult.

The older boomers were considered not hip by our younger siblings. This is where the term "uptight" came from, it meant too afraid of sexual promiscuity. We had a session with a priest in 7th and 8th grade where Father explained sex to us. They divided the girls and boys, and divided that into two sessions. Father was ruby red explaining sex, and he had much to learn, he was celibate for sure.

It was sad making this good Father make a fool of himself in front of smart ass young teenaged boys.

I don't want to paint a picture of us with halos, but the older boomers started life and dating before the pill. That means girls got preggers so sex was not on the menu. Enovid-E started about 1965 but Catholics waited except for the bold, and the pill for daughters was not considered yet. In the neighborhood some Dr. Quacks would sell them to young girls and young women, and their liberation made them obvious.

In HS, I had a priest for biology that was a real scientist. He taught us all boys reproduction through all the different animals up to humans. It was exhaustive and by the time we got to humans we were so tired we had no funny one liners. My Parents could never have done this and I believe this is the correct approach. Teach it as science with every bit of detail in an objective manner.

This fits my ongoing theory that this entire mess of today is a plan launched by the Devil. No human could keep track of all these things and make them coincide. This plan is preternatural. This piece of knowing how ill prepared our parents were, and being blind sided because what had always been done would now no longer do, has his claws all over it.

tim

(11-27-2013, 08:43 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-27-2013, 06:46 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Writing this with a squirmy-wormy almost 1-year old on my lap, so forgive any typos.

I don't think the article is untrue -- i.e., I believe that evangelicals are much more apt to refrain from sexual sins than the typical Catholic is. I think a number of things are at the root of this:

1)  Evangelicals take Christ seriously and don't at all underestimate the power of Christ to actually WORK in people's lives. They don't approach the Faith through the head RATHER THAN through the heart. Ideally, both the heart and head should be satisfied, and the true Faith, practiced well and taught well would take care of things just fine. The NO lovey-dovey stuff leaves out the head; the Toxic Trad approach leaves out the heart. The TRUE trad way deals with BOTH.

2)  Catholics are not only not catechized properly, they're too often anti-catechized.

3)  Evangelicals have groups for their kids to be involved with, which creates a peer group that isn't pressuring them into sin and which allows them to have normal social lives.  In the Catholic world, it's Mass on Sundays -- and that's it, typically. What groups there are tend to be bogus, condescending nonsense that centers around "youth Masses" that don't inspire a sense of the Sacred at all.

4)  Catholics, as a group, don't read Scripture often enough, well enough, and in a way that inspires them to re-realize the Truths of the Church.

I envision a Catholic culture in which  traditional Catholicism is preserved and handed down 100% intact, in which the traditional Sacramental rites are available everywhere, in which neither a hyper-emphasis on the heart OR the head prevails, in which there are things at the parish and diocese levels for people -- including KIDS, esp. TEENS -- to DO and find each other (same with stay-at-home Moms who want to network and find friends), in which Bible Studies done the Catholic way are everywhere, in which service to others -- inc. non-Catholics -- is stressed (and acts as a means to evangelize), in which sex is spoken of with joy, without shame, and maybe even with some humor --  AND as something for married folks, and in which no Catholic ever has to feel alone in the world.

Ideally, there'd be a rebirth of parish-based neighborhoods, but that's likely a long way off...


 


Best bet Vox, Catholics take note of those whacky Libertarians. Traditional civilly-reactionary Catholics should make a solemn effort to migrate en-masse to a part in America or the globe where we can carry out a purely Catholic neo-Medieval society.

About 20 years ago, I heard of the "Catholic Community" phenomenon--little neighborhoods of devout Catholics who intentionally moved into those communities to live and actively engage one another in a devout Catholic life.  I actually met some people who were living or had lived in these.  Very enviable.

I haven't heard of this kind of thing in a while, although it does require a sort of economic ability/freedom which is far less available today, especially to Catholics.  Since then, we've had NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements which have taken all the money and decent jobs away from Americans in favor of foreign sweat shops.  This economic depravity has continued a major effect on the majority of Americans, some of whom would do good things with the income.

Anyway, I rant.

You know it's possible to build a small Catholic enclave as you are speaking about. First thing is the country has to be okay with Catholics, and it should be second or third world. That would be an economic climate where small manufacturing business start-ups would work.

tim
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