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Okay this is the second time, I think, I have seen this discussion about what the meaning of the Church teaching that the promise that God made to Israel or rather to the Jews has never been revoked. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what this actually means. Some think that this means that Jews can be saved by simply following the mosaic law, this would be of course a false and wrong as the mosaic law was never meant to be of a "salvific" nature to begin with but rather purgatorial (in my opinion) as preparation for the true fulfillment of the promise that God made to his nation Israel which was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

So for those that support the view that the original covenant with the Jewish people has been indeed revoked I can only say that to me from my understanding it presents a couple of troubling aspects. In my mind the way that is put by some if the covenant was truly revoked then it would mean:

1. God lied to his nation Israel and did not fulfilled his promise.
2. Jews can not convert to Christianity
3. The Old Testament is not to be looked upon as part of Sacred Scripture.

(11-29-2013, 06:33 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]Okay this is the second time, I think, I have seen this discussion about what the meaning of the Church teaching that the promise that God made to Israel or rather to the Jews has never been revoked. There seems to be a lot of confusion as to what this actually means. Some think that this means that Jews can be saved by simply following the mosaic law, this would be of course a false and wrong as the mosaic law was never meant to be of a "salvific" nature to begin with but rather purgatorial (in my opinion) as preparation for the true fulfillment of the promise that God made to his nation Israel which was fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

So for those that support the view that the original covenant with the Jewish people has been indeed revoked I can only say that to me from my understanding it presents a couple of troubling aspects. In my mind the way that is put by some if the covenant was truly revoked then it would mean:

1. God lied to his nation Israel and did not fulfilled his promise.
2. Jews can not convert to Christianity
3. The Old Testament is not to be looked upon as part of Sacred Scripture.

1. Wasn't Christ the fulfillment of the Old (original) Covenant? The Jews rejected Christ (the fulfillment of God's promise).
2. Jews should convert to Christianity given that their Old Covenant is null and the New Covenant is salvific.
3. The New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old and is the foundation upon which the New Covenant is realized.

MDA
Ditto.

From figures and shadows to the reality.

From the promise (made not only to the Jews but also to those descended from Abraham, Noah, Heber, and Adam) to fulfillment.

He hath received Israel his servant,
being mindful of his mercy:
As he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his seed for ever.

"his seed" This seed is Christ.

Romans10:4 For the end of the law is Christ

Romans11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.

Christ is the calling, the gift, the promise, the meaning of the world.

deprofundis
I think all of this is over words meanings. God didn't revoke His Covenant the Jews did. His promise is forever on His end, but it was tossed away by their rejecting Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant, and He was rejected. So for those that rejected the Old Covenant they must accept Christ to fulfill the Old Covenant, which brings them to where we are in the New Covenant. The gobble-de-gook comes when some take this to mean a return to Old Covenant before Christ will save. It appears to me we do not have a verb which distinguishes the difference between who rejected the Covenant. From God's perspective He and it is eternal, Christ came and He is the Messiah, promised from the very beginning , and objectively they brake the Old Covenant by rejecting the Messiah the Lord Jesus Christ.

tim
Even from the VII Council document Nostra Aetatae:

Nostra Aetatae (Vaticano II) Wrote:4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

Says it all...there is no more Old Covenant, because Jesus Christ fulfilled it. Jews still need to come to Christ.
If you read Scripture there is a passage that reads that the Apostles hid.....................................for fear of the Jews,    the Popes successors to those Apostles continue to repeat this passage.
(11-29-2013, 08:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Even from the VII Council document Nostra Aetatae:

Nostra Aetatae (Vaticano II) Wrote:4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

Says it all...there is no more Old Covenant, because Jesus Christ fulfilled it. Jews still need to come to Christ.

Hence my point if the covenant was revoked then Jews could not do this ever.
(11-29-2013, 09:03 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]
(11-29-2013, 08:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Even from the VII Council document Nostra Aetatae:

Nostra Aetatae (Vaticano II) Wrote:4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

Says it all...there is no more Old Covenant, because Jesus Christ fulfilled it. Jews still need to come to Christ.

Hence my point if the covenant was revoked then Jews could not do this ever.

It wasn't so much revoked, but fulfilled. The Jews then rejected Christ and did not believe he was the Messiah of which their scriptures foretold. Jews can certainly come to Christ, just as anyone can.

MDA
(11-29-2013, 10:38 PM)missadeangelis Wrote: [ -> ]It wasn't so much revoked, but fulfilled. The Jews then rejected Christ and did not believe he was the Messiah of which their scriptures foretold. Jews can certainly come to Christ, just as anyone can.

MDA

I agree with this. Jeremias 31:31-34 says that the Jews (as a group, obviously -- "obviously" because many remained faithful and accepted Christ later on) broke the Covenant and made it "void," but God doesn't break His promises. He held up His end of the deal by fulfilling the Old Covenant by sending the promised Messiah. Many Jews expected a Messiah who'd bring on an earthly kingdom, but what they got, and what most rejected, was a Messiah Whose Kingdom is Heavenly and eternal.

No one is saved by the Old Covenant. No one ever was, either. It's Christ alone Who saves, and the "Harrowing of Hell" (see the FE page on Holy Saturday here) is when the "Limbo of the Fathers" was emptied out when the gates of Heaven were opened by Christ's Sacrifice.

It totally kills me to hear about how, "since Vatican II," the Church no longer teaches that Jews need Christ in order to be saved.  An example:

Quote: From the UK's Catholic Herald:

'New respect' for Judaism since Vatican II

RABBI Marc H. Tanenbaum, national director of the American Jewish Committee's Inter-religious Affairs Department, said here that the Secend Vatican Council had made it possible for Catholic scholars to develop a theology which respected Judaism for its own value rather than viewing Jews as potential converts.

He said that before the Council "bigots were able to cloak their hatred of Jews with the mantle of the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. They can no longer do that because the Vatican Council decisively repudiated anti-Semitism."

Rabbi Tanenbaum also said: "During the past 1,900 years, many Christians looked upon Judaism as a desiccated religion, and upon Jews simply as candidates for conversion.

"The Vatican Council has made it possible for dozens of Catholics scholars to begin developing a theology of Judaism which respects this vital faith in its own terms as a permanent source of truth and value to its adherents."

Sorry, rabbi, but Judaism is a dessicated religion, and Jews, like everyone else on earth are candidates for conversion. And Vatican II had not much at all to say about Judaism other than this from Nostra Aetate, my emphasis:

Nostra Aetate Wrote:4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

5. We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man's relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: "He who does not love does not know God" (1 John 4:8).

No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to discrimination between man and man or people and people, so far as their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

That's it. Nothing new there. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, issued by Pope St. Pius V (A.D. 1566-1572), taught:

Quote:  Furthermore men of all ranks and conditions were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Gentiles and Jews were the advisers, the authors, the ministers of His Passion: Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, all the rest deserted Him.

and

 
Quote:    In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of Him. This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.

But there that rabbi is in the article above, trying to convince us that something reallllllllllllllllllly big changed "because of Vatican II" -- when nothing changed. I read Jewish writings and see this sort of thing all the time. I also see in in Catholic ("Catholic"?) neo-conservative and progressive writings. Some folks out there really want to convince us that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Himself on the rock of St. Peter was, at one time, a font of hatred and bigotry. That's calumny of the highest order. It's sacrilege. It could even be called blasphemy since the Church is the Bride of Christ and, so, is One with Him. But the aforementioned types write this stuff all the time, and people believe it.

I posted a link to this recently, but for those who missed it -- or for those who didn't click on it -- here it is again:  a discussion I had with a Jewish person who claimed to have converted to Catholicism -- but who apparently wants to see his ethnic brethren held up as The Elect of the Elect or something. I remember being kind of shocked by his attitude; it's just so -- unseemly, so "racist" (or ethnocentric), so arrogant, and so insensitive:  http://www.fisheaters.com/letter4.html

That exchange is in a sub-section on Jewish-Catholic relations, found here:  http://www.fisheaters.com/jcintro.html

I also recently posted this link, and hope folks check it out:  http://www.fisheaters.com/dispensationalism.html

I deeply believe that Catholics need to come to a very clear understanding of the issues involved in Jewish-Catholic relations. As I also recently posted, I think that this, in the end, will be one of those "bottom line" types of issues that will differentiate traditional Catholics from non-trads who will end up "drinking the Kool-Aid," as they say. This page (also linked to in the Jewish-Catholic relations sub-section) explains a LOT:  http://www.fisheaters.com/mysteryofthejewishpeople.html

What makes all this really tough is that talking about it will undoubtedly get the label of "anti-semite" slapped on one -- even if one does so, as one should, prudently and with no malice whatsoever toward the Jewish people (as opposed to post-Temple Judaism -- i.e., Pharisaic Talmudic rabbinism, a radically different religion from the one Jesus and the Apostles practiced before the Old Covenant was fulfilled). Sadly, there are a sub-set of the "Toxic Trads" out there who do seem to have malice in their hearts against the Jewish people, who see "Jewish conspiracies" everywhere (which is NOT to say that such conspiracies don't exist), and who are out and out racists -- none of these things being Catholic in any sense whatsoever.  And then there are folks who aren't like that, but who don't use prudence when talking about these things, who don't have a sense of how the manner in which they write "comes off" to people new to these concepts. Given our society as it is now, and the power of groups like the ADL and SPLC, etc., a body has to not just be prudent in an ordinary way, but must be extraordinarily prudent, to go out of his way to clarify, to be careful with language, to use qualifiers to make things more clear, etc. Even talking about these issues like that won't be enough to get the true haters off your back, but I very much think we have to talk about these things. If there is to ever be a restoration of Christendom, or even a defense of what's left of it, we simply must talk about:  the post-Temple Jewish religion; Jewish anti-Christianism; the power of Jewish lobbying groups; usury; the ability of AIPAC to basically control America's foreign policy and get us into wars that we have no business whatsoever waging; Jewish power with regard to the media and how that affects our society's view of Christianity and of Catholicism in particular (see http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...114.0.html ); the reasons why it's OK to bash the Church, to have "Piss Christ" photos in museums, to have the incessant jokes about "pedophile" (sic) priests, to have almost any dramatic depiction of a Catholic -- especially a priest -- that of a nasty, hypocritical, very fallen person who's likely stupid, superstitious, psychotic, suffering from at least one Big Problem (is a pedophile, a kinky sex addict, a rapist or serial killer, an alcoholic or other type of addict, someone who goes about beating in the heads of homosexuals, etc.) -- but to express even a whiff of anything remotely like that with regard to Judaism leaving you at the mercy of the ADL, et. al., and likely having your career, and reputation as a person allowed to show his face in Polite Society, destroyed, etc. Even believing it was 5 million and not 6 million who died or were killed during the Shoah (a topic which is not allowed to be discussed on this forum)  will earn you the label "Holocaust denier" which leaves you a persona non grata anywhere -- and likely fined or even imprisoned in many parts of Europe. I mean really:  THINK ABOUT THAT. Think about that and read that link I posted -- this one:  http://www.fisheaters.com/mysteryofthejewishpeople.html  Ponder what it means, how it all happened -- and how this will end up. Yup, there's a great Mystery here indeed...

God's covenant with the Jewish people ended when the heads of the Jewish religion crucified the Messiah.

At the same time, Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant by establishing a New Covenant, which is with Christians.

Jews are not Christians, so they no longer have a Covenant with God.

But they still have the distinction of being descendants of the once Chosen People, so God will still fulfill His promises to them to save them. In the end the Jews will convert.

It is a sacred duty to pray specifically for their conversion.

The Covenant with the Jews no longer exists, but He still has special plans for them.
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