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I've noticed at a few, maybe 3 of the diocesan TLMs offered by diocesan priests the mass offered is a dialogue mass.

The one our family attends sometimes makes one feel that they might as well attend the NO. At least the lay people sound slightly less robotic and fare a bit better in English and the priest's way about him is definitely very much according to the new mass. For example, he definitely is making some sort of connection with the people when he turns and says the "Dominus vobiscum." The SSPX and FSSP priests I have seen always try somehow to ignore us while doing this, by looking down, or closing the eyes.

At the consecration the priest says all the correct words and in Latin and everything but reads it in that narrative style so common at the new mass. In a clear, loud voice he read along, flowing right into "hoc est enim corpus meum" and without prior knowledge you wouldn't know anything of greater importance was being said/taking place until the bells and elevation.

I am very grateful that my first real experiences with the TLM were with the FSSP so I could better learn about the beauty of the priesthood and learn my place as a layman. One of my biggest anxieties before my first TLM was not knowing the responses (I assumed I had to "do" something just as in the new mass) and having to try to follow along an unfamiliar order in Latin while juggling toddlers. If I had started attending a TLM like this dialogue I described I would have kept the same new mass mindset about participation and other concepts. More than halfway through the mass we were handed the "red book" (we weren't saying the parts like everyone else). Although I had very warm feelings towards the kindness of the gesture, the ushers were very kind joyful looking and welcoming people.

I didn't feel like there were any bad intentions about, no intention to sabotage the 1962 liturgy. I would assume new mass Catholics wanting tradition resurrecting the liturgy but going about it according to their post-conciliar upbringing. This is what I would have done if not for my encounter with the FSSP. However, It seems like these very Novus Ordo-ized liturgies are a somewhat false representation and an UNDER-representation of what the traditional mass is.

Anyone else with thoughts and experiences on this?
You may have heard me say this here before. We participated before Vatican II If you can get your hands on a St. Andrew Missal it has some on the subject. Gregorian Chant which had been lessened was beginning to come back. In the Missal they mention the three kinds of Low Masses; Dialogata, Recitata, and Cantata.

This is not in defense of the priest imitating the NO narrative. We were encouraged to respond with our Missals. The St. Andrew has the responses in bold.

tim
(02-10-2014, 08:40 PM)Tim Wrote: [ -> ]You may have heard me say this here before. We participated before Vatican II If you can get your hands on a St. Andrew Missal it has some on the subject. Gregorian Chant which had been lessened was beginning to come back. In the Missal they mention the three kinds of Low Masses; Dialogata, Recitata, and Cantata.

This is not in defense of the priest imitating the NO narrative. We were encouraged to respond with our Missals. The St. Andrew has the responses in bold.

tim

Always nice to hear your perspective Tim. I really appreciate hearing your eye witness testimony. I'm in my twenties so to figure out the crisis I'm always having to learn about events preceding my birth so it's really cool to hear all your experiences of pre-conciliar Parish life.

It's difficult to describe the atmosphere at these dialogue Masses. So stale and a little confusing. I feel like I finally understand one of my friends' departure from her Latin mass upbringing to a more hip neo-Catholic approach. When I first came to tradition and came to learn the friend had been raised in the Latin mass I couldn't understand the friend came to their current conclusions about tradition but now I can see that even though they were raised at the Latin Mass what was conveyed both at mass every week as well as what passed for the faith at home had little to no vibrancy or explanation. Both atmospheres conveyed a sort of unenthusiastic obligation and slow death. Shame.
Here's a little depth. In those days participation was not by everyone. It wasn't "congregational" like the Prots. Some responded quietly, and others more audibly, and .those that couldn't sing kept quiet. One of the few times all sang together was the recessional "Holy God we praise Thy Name". Many people were quiet during the Mass. Lately I've been wondering if it was my own little bubble which has made me see this as I relate. Most of my pals were altar  boys, and I had some talent at singing. I was zeroed in on the Latin for Mass, and that may have reverberated among my pals. While visiting an old pal with those same guys, his wife who is 15-20 ears younger, was speaking about the NO Mass. He said he has no idea about this Mass, and I started the Intoibo ad Altare Dei, and they chimed in. She was flabbergasted we could all remember.

tim
I guess for some folks it's helpful to say some of the responses at the TLM; for me it just distracts me and makes me anxious, like I have follow along in the Missal to get something out of being there. To me it's enough to recollect myself beforehand and just pray a rosary, the Jesus Prayer and keep my eyes closed for most of the time. I like how in the traditional Mass the laity offer their prayers with the celebrant but that ultimately it is the celebrant beseeching our Lord on our behalf. Everything from from the Judica me Domine at the foot of the altar to the silent Canon speaks of this. It's enough to be there, to pray and beseech and adore in silence as the man whose soul is marked in a special way with the sign of the holy priesthood in a miraculous fashion makes our Lord present on the altar. No words or dialog is necessary.
"Participatio actuosa" is perfectly possible by silently attending Mass. It wouldn't even be necessary to follow along in a missal. I prefer a silent Mass over a dialogue Mass, especially because there are some people (priests included) who try to make you feel bad because you did not respond aloud. Evelyn Waugh once wrote:

‘Participation’ in the Mass does not mean hearing our own voices. It means God hearing our voices. Only He knows who is ‘participating’ at Mass. I believe, to compare small things with great, that I ‘participate’ in a work of art when I study it and love it silently. No need to shout. …If the Germans want to be noisy, let them. But why should they disturb our devotions?’

Exactly that is what I like to do at Mass: to study it and to love it silently. To communicate with God, pouring out my heart before His throne. To just behold Him in the Sacred Host and the Most Precious Blood. To adore Him, to give thanks, to pray. Dialogue Masses tend to silence the prayers in your heart, to make place for loud prayers of the mouth. Who am I, unworthy sinner, that I should dare to utter a word before the throne of God?
"FaithandLove" Wrote:At the consecration the priest says all the correct words and in Latin and everything but reads it in that narrative style so common at the new mass. In a clear, loud voice he read along, flowing right into "hoc est enim corpus meum"
At first I wanted to write that I believe there's nothing wrong in reading the text of the Mass in a narrative style, but then it struck me: isn't the Canon supposed to be whispered? ???
It seems to me that at I silent or sung mass, no one need argue about how they participate. I find "following along" more distracting than anything, but my husband likes to following with the missal. Both of us hate being pressured to pronounce Latin words in timely unison or sing.

The Dialogue Mass and of course, new mass being in vernacular, is so divisive. There were articles and letters to the editor going back and forth in the New Oxford Review about which translation of the new mass they liked or which words confused them and the whole discussion just drove me mad because if you just left the words in Latin you wouldn't have lay people disturbed by and debating about how its translated. And then the new mass just gets worse with Spanish, Vietnamese, Polish all being at separate times. Before I learned about tradition I was stuck going to a Spanish mass once since it was the only time I could make my obligation and that was AWKWARD.

Of course the dialogue mass isn't anywhere near as bad an experience as that but when I just stand there silently I know I'm not doing anything wrong/being rude but similar to not holding someone's hand during the Our Father or disappearing during the "sign of peace" I feel pressured.
"FaithandLove" Wrote:holding someone's hand during the Our Father
Do people actually do that? Gosh, I'd die there.
I think this goes all ways, those that are reflective and silent, those that want to participate where it's allowed, and those that would like to sing the parts of the ordinary.Catholics should be allowed. We are not congregationalists, and for those that are Classical Music aficionados there is High Mass.  What irks me a bit is when Low Mass is required to be Silent. There is no good reason, and I've heard priests after Mass, as they come down the Altar steps tell visitors, at St. X, we do not respond, nor recite the Pater Noster with the Priest. I can understand a warning in the little Missals in the pews to the extent responses should be soft, but banning them ?? I also remember the Sisters teaching us the rosary was the Only devotion which could be prayed at Mass, thereby pooh poohing those little books of devotion popular back then. I don't know from the New Mass except on EWTN. I discovered that on my way back. It was like lightening in a bottle. There are parts which are chanted in Latin, and it woke me up. It wasn't long I remembered the Oratre Fratres, the Suscipiat, and the Pater Noster. In my over enthusiasm I would sing the priest's parts at home in my privacy until I remembered that was a no no. I know I helped more than one priest there through the Libera nos by telepathy.

tim
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