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I wonder if this thread will get 7 pages as well.  :LOL:

Just to show you that two can play that game.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02...since.html

the pope thinks that the Traditional Latin Mass is a treasure to the Church and that his only fear is that the Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form could be “instrumentalized”, and bishop Rifan answered His Holiness that he is doing everything that he could to ensure that this is not going to happen and to promote the Extraordinary Form as a treasure for the entire universal Church, to which he humbly belongs. At the end of the Mass the Te Deum was sung by all those present.

I am however curious as to what the Pope means by instrumentalized, again like so many of the things he says we are at a quandary as to how to interpret them.

Given what he has said before, "instrumentalized" means to use the missal as an instrument of rebellion or disunity, etc.  This was also Paul VI's reason for not granting greater use of it.  He saw it being used by Lefebrve and others as a symbol of and way to call into question the authority of the Council and the Pope.  This potential for "instrumentalization" is nothing new of course. 

To use a historical example, Communion under both species was re-permitted briefly in the 1400s to some groups, but some Utraquists used it as a symbol for denying the Church's authority over the administration of the sacraments, and so it was taken way again (it became associated with Protestantism later as well).  Something otherwise holy and good (but within the Church's authority to regulate) was being instrumentalized for bad purposes.

So I think the concern of the Pope is the same regarding the TLM.  Whether that concern is as justified as he may think it is, is probably debatable.  I don't think it is instrumentalized that way nearly as often as he seems to have been led to believe from his other comments, especially within the dioceses and Ecclesia Dei societies, but I could be wrong. From my experience it seems to be mostly used by the faithful as a legitimate means to being better Catholics.
(02-20-2014, 04:57 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if this thread will get 7 pages as well.  :LOL:

Just to show you that two can play that game.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02...since.html

the pope thinks that the Traditional Latin Mass is a treasure to the Church and that his only fear is that the Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form could be “instrumentalized”, and bishop Rifan answered His Holiness that he is doing everything that he could to ensure that this is not going to happen and to promote the Extraordinary Form as a treasure for the entire universal Church, to which he humbly belongs. At the end of the Mass the Te Deum was sung by all those present.

I am however curious as to what the Pope means by instrumentalized, again like so many of the things he says we are at a quandary as to how to interpret them.

That is the problem, one never knows what to think of his attitudes. He makes other comments which sound insulting quite honestly, though it is often difficult to determine who is being insulted. I have no idea who "promethean neo-Pelagians" are, I have yet to find anyone who does. He also said he is concerned when the TLM (or EF take your pick) is used as an "ideology". What does that mean and who the heck ever used a liturgy as an ideology?

C.
Doesn't he realize that the novus ordo Mass was instrumentalized?
(02-20-2014, 06:06 PM)Lavalliere Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't he realize that the novus ordo Mass was instrumentalized?

A very good point and one that calls for a deeper examination as it seems to have been especially the case with the NCR crowd when using the previous translation. And some priests persist in the old translation such as one in my parish which also creates confusion.

C.

With so many contradictory statements from Pope Francis I don't know what to think.

tim
(02-20-2014, 04:57 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if this thread will get 7 pages as well.  :LOL:

Just to show you that two can play that game.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02...since.html

the pope thinks that the Traditional Latin Mass is a treasure to the Church and that his only fear is that the Holy Mass in the Extraordinary Form could be “instrumentalized”, and bishop Rifan answered His Holiness that he is doing everything that he could to ensure that this is not going to happen and to promote the Extraordinary Form as a treasure for the entire universal Church, to which he humbly belongs. At the end of the Mass the Te Deum was sung by all those present.

I am however curious as to what the Pope means by instrumentalized, again like so many of the things he says we are at a quandary as to how to interpret them.

Thanks for the link & thread. One day we are up, one day we are down.....I guess I will stay off of the internet tomorrow.....
I think that what the Holy Father meant by "instrumentalize" was that he feared the TLM may be used to encourage resistence to the current modernist agenda of the vatican heirarchy.

And I am surprised that Bp Rifan can't see through this --- 
(02-20-2014, 06:06 PM)Lavalliere Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't he realize that the novus ordo Mass was instrumentalized?

This is an excellent point, because if any rite has been 'instrumentalized' it is clearly the Novus Ordo, it was used to abandon any presumption of rubrics, manipulated to justify all kinds of heresies...
(02-21-2014, 01:49 PM)winoblue1 Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-20-2014, 06:06 PM)Lavalliere Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't he realize that the novus ordo Mass was instrumentalized?

This is an excellent point, because if any rite has been 'instrumentalized' it is clearly the Novus Ordo, it was used to abandon any presumption of rubrics, manipulated to justify all kinds of heresies...

The EF has been politicized, instrumentalized, objectified... is it possible to rape liturgy? Because that's pretty much what the SSPX does.
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