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(02-26-2014, 08:02 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Why is that the case, Papist? Is it because you just don't care to mention it, consider it a private struggle for the most part, etc., or because of fear of being judged, or -- ?

For the most part I consider it a private struggle, and I am not sure that there is any benefit to myself or to others in sharing it. I could be wrong. The Eastern Orthodox monk Fr. Seraphim Rose was open about his past and his struggles in this matter, but he was a very saintly man.
(02-26-2014, 08:02 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]A big good riddance to those people. We're all sinners, but some folks have malice in them, which, to me, is on a totally different level of evil than folks stumbling with regard to addiction, sexual desire, etc. While I won't judge the souls of those folks either, I'd guess that Christ looks at malice as worse than, say, an alcoholic getting drunk one night after years on the wagon. When one of the Two Great Commandments is "love your neighbor, it seems a pretty obvious thing to me.

Anyway, I'm sorry you and others (and I, for that matter) had to deal with that crap. Banning the lot of the "toxic trad types" was a good thing, and I think the forum has been MUCH better off since then.
I agree. The forum has been much better now. Thank you for all the work that you do.
(02-26-2014, 08:02 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]While it's true that marriage and the priesthood are closed to homosexuals, it's also true -- especially in this culture -- that decent spouses are hard to find. And spouses can dump you, leaving you in the same situation homosexuals are in. Or they die (and women after the age of 40 are not very likely to find another spouse). All of this I'm saying to just point out that there are lots of straight people in the situation of being sexual beings, young and vibrant, wanting sexual intimacy -- but unable to express their love for another in a sexual way. There are, undoubtedly, a lot more of them numerically than there are homosexuals in that same boat. But it is so, too, as you say, that the hope could always be there (e.g., maybe the spouse who dumped you dies, or you're one of the few women whom men hit on after the age of 30 :P )
Very good points. All things which one needs to keep in mind when tempted to despair. We all have difficult crosses to carry.
(02-26-2014, 08:02 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]Your last paragraph is really sad to me and makes me want to repeat something I've said before on this forum (many times, after all these years):  the old school way of veritably pushing folks into marriage or a monastery/seminary was bad, and there are some trads who still think that way (a small sub-set, thank God). There is room in the world for all the folks who don't have religious or priestly vocations, who aren't called to marriage, who might think they're called to marriage but can't find a spouse, etc. Maybe one thing the Church could do is talk more about the single life and ways of making the celibate life as meaningful and as rich as possible. There are sooooo many things that the single can do that folks with families, or the religious, don't have the time to do, for ex. Maybe we need a "Singles Club" (but with a better name so it doesn't sound like a dating club) for straight folks and homosexuals and whoever who are committed to chastity and who want to engage in service to others, maybe evangelize in the streets together, or do random acts of kindness in the Name of Jesus together. In addition to helping set up volunteer stuff, it could also act as a sub-community of the Church for celibate, non-ordained/non-religious folks to get together and socialize, have some fun, and have each others' backs spiritually. (Man, I wish I had a bigger house (with a kitchen) and some money! I'd SO start something like this in my home!)

In any case, don't despair about not having a meaningful life just because you can't marry or become a priest! There's so, SO much you can do! Your being single frees you up to do a lot of things folks with kids just can't because kids are such a "time-suck"! Being single can be seen as a gift in that way!
Again, all very good points.  In January I completed my masters degree in philosophy, graduating Summa cum laude, and I hope to eventually begin working on my PhD at a faithful Catholic institution. It would be very difficult to do these sorts of things if I were married and had children.
It's interesting that several of us observe that when we have healthy friendships with men, the SSA is not an issue. It's good evidence that SSA is not an orientation in the way that secular society would like us to think but, rather, it is a defect indicating developmental issues.
(02-26-2014, 08:27 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for this thread and your appeal to charity, Vox. What a beautiful statement you made in that large paragraph about all races and peoples. Truly, we are called by name by Christ, regardless of our sins. He came to be sacrificed and resurrected for the glory of the Father, that our worthless little human glorifications, tinged by sin, might become truly mighty praises offered in a deserving manner to the God of Hosts. That sacrifice continues daily, hourly, across the world for all us unworthy sinners.

Amen to that!

(02-26-2014, 08:27 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]I am very ambivalent about the attitude that most people - gay, straight, traditionalist, liberal - take in this matter. If we're going to have a "gay trads" thread, why not have "trads who love legs", "trads who love backsides", and "trads who love breasts" threads? That is very crude, but it illustrates a conviction I always had, even as an atheist: our sexual attractions are not us. Having a fetish for legs or other parts of the female body, in straight men, is just as twisted as having a fetish for members of the same sex. One distorts the humanity of the female he is attracted to, and the other distorts the image of God in what he is attracted to, by shifting it to members of his own sex.

One reason that readily comes to mind is that there aren't fetishist activists wanting to re-define marriage or push information about their fetishes into the heads of 6 year olds. Homosexualist activists (which, again, I totally distinguish from mere homosexuals) are a force that needs to be confronted and dealt with.

Another reason is that a "trad who loves breasts," say, can get married to a woman with big boobs, have kids, etc., and so on. Homosexuals most likely won't have the entire option of becoming family men (or priests) open to them.

A third reason is that some homosexuals have some rather (at least stereotypically) feminine interests and behaviors, or artistic or more "sensitive" approaches to things, which lead to their being bullied and called "fag" and all that while growing up, thereby sort of "forcing" them to stick together and become activists to some degree out of self-preservation. And others, while not being "fey" in any way, will have their lack of interest in women questioned, etc., which leads to the bullying, etc., which leads to a natural desire to engage in some level of activism. The Westboro people, for ex., show that some folks just don't like homosexuals and will be vicious toward them, and when that attitude exists, I think it's understandable for a homosexual to want to fight against it (I mean, I'm not gay and even I want to fight it).

A fourth reason is that there are more homosexuals out there (I believe, anyway) than there is any single group of fetishists, and I think that with all the fatherless homes we have now, there will be an explosion in the number of homosexuals within the next 10 years or so. I'd bet money on it. IOW, we're talking about a rather sizeable minority of the population, and I want folks with this problem to be able to be honest about who they are (if that's what they want) and to be loved and helped and led to Christ.

(02-26-2014, 08:27 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, this thread is a good opportunity, so I should not disparage it!

I am 25, male, a little overweight, with glasses, and a full but short beard. Broad shoulders. Not immediately obvious as one to be trifled with, or a stereotypical ponce or fruit. I wear polo shirts casually and a full suit & tie when I go to church. I am quiet, intellectual, melancholic, and INFJ. I am a ridiculously excitable person in the realm of sexuality, but that probably just comes with youth. I draw architectural drafts while dreaming of restoring Romanesque and Classical styles to Catholic churches, and help with English-language tutoring for Italians in this area. I despise the gay lifestyle and think it is entirely from Satan. Due to extreme depression and anxiety throughout my teenage years, however, I never left the house much, so I was never drawn into the Lifestyle. There's a gay bar in this city, but it might as well have been 3000 miles away. Thanks be to God.

I'd say I am a trad, but I live in a place where there are no licit 1962 Masses celebrated for more than 100 miles in every direction. I've enver heard a novus ordo priest say anything overtly accepting of homosexuality, gay marriage, or whatever. They do get ambiguous, saying we need to accept everyone, love everyone, etc., with all the abandonment of Catholic teaching which that style of speech can imply. This is a very boring, usual liberal diocese with not-particularly-holy Masses, but nothing particularly wild either. I basically just feel lost and empty here... but it's better than being in a den of iniquity like San Francisco or a pit of heresy like Amsterdam. I long for the reverent Mass, the Mass that has content. Sometimes I wonder if it's due to the innate psychological tendencies to melodrama, ballet, and showing-off. I fully admit that all gay men have this interest - the Oxford movement was filled with homosexuals, effeminate men, and pederasts. They loved the hangings and incense and flowers and bells and colours.

A good percentage of homosexuals have really good taste LOL

(02-26-2014, 08:27 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]I believe male homosexuality (or, better, same-sex attractions) is caused by neglect, abuse, a distant father, loneliness, and emptiness. One simply does not grow up properly when under constant anxiety, which causes self-obsession, which leads to a sense of brokenness and entitlement. That feeling of being broken leads to you looking at other gay men (who are similarly psychologically broken) and, instead of seeing the image of God, seeing your own self. You attach to them, and almost want to comfort and embrace your own self in them. Genetic causes will never be found for homosexuality. It's all about not having becoming a man, in the ethical and virtuous sense... and that can be traced to a relationship with the father and mother. Nurture, not nature! We all sin in our fallen nature, but particular sins are formed by the way we live.

I agree with you. Well, I take that back to a degree:  I think they can find genetic causes of, for ex., sensitivity, a poetic nature, a non-sports-addict type of person. But I think it's nurture that acts on a person born with those genetic propensities (which aren't gay in themselves) -- say the distant father -- and causes the kid to come to eroticize his struggle to identify with the masculine.

(02-26-2014, 08:27 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]My great desire is to be a religious and/or priest of any kind. Franciscan, Dominican, Carthusian, diocesan, clerk, canon - anything sacred. I have lately seen that this is actually a wish to break free from the smothering feeling of being useless, worthless, and pointless as a "fag". Having had these exclusively-male-directed urges since I was 11 years old, my whole adolescence and adulthood has been formed by them. I have given up impurity, and would never go anywhere near a gay man who looked at me in a queer fashion. I have zero attraction to boys, and would never act on such attractions anyway. It doesn't look as if I'd ever be able to apply to become a seminarian or brother in good conscience, however, as the Church has always been very clear about the emotional and spiritual state required for that.

Since I have no interest in women and hate dishonesty, I cannot force myself to marry. Along with Papist, I've pretty much come to accept that I'll be a pointless, useless lay-person, celibate and alone, for the rest of my life. That is how I see it when I am in darkness. When in the light of joy and hope, I know that I can never be alone if I am in the state of grace - and even if I am not, Christ is still creating me and sending forth His Spirit to keep me in existence. Praise God. There is so much more to life than sexuality.

I want to grab you and hug you so hard right now. Oh, my gosh.. You are NOT "useless, worthless, or pointless" -- "even as" a homosexual. No! Oh, no, no, no, Heorot! You are a beloved child of God Himself, adopted son of the Father through the grace of Christ! You are so loved that if you could feel it, you'd die of it! God most certainly has plans for you. You must believe this -- trust in this. Trust in Jesus. Make yourself of service to others -- especially if you can do it in a way that uses any special gifts you might have (drawing, teaching, etc.) Teach RCIA classes! Write a blog to help other homosexual Catholics! Become a teacher! Or do the old "soup kitchen routine" to serve others. You are here to love God and love others. That's what ALL of us are here to do, whether we're married or priests or single. You just have to find your way of doing that the best way you can, that's all. That's what we ALL have to do! We're not so different! I'm a 51-year old, broke-ass, bipolar woman who got dumped -- and I SMOKE. Ya know? We are legion, folks like you and me! We're fine -- or, if we're not right at the moment, we will be, can be! And if we have bad days or nights sometimes -- well, that's what friends are for.

MAN do I really want to start that "club" thing now... Sheesh!



(02-26-2014, 09:10 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]Again, all very good points.  In January I completed my masters degree in philosophy, graduating Summa cum laude, and I hope to eventually begin working on my PhD at a faithful Catholic institution. It would be very difficult to do these sorts of things if I were married and had children.

Yes! See? Oh, GOOD for you, Papist.. Just awesome! Think of all the GOOD you can do being a TRAD with a degree in Philosophy -- like working in a seminary to help form priests! Or working at a place like Notre Dame and getting things RIGHT there for once, thereby helping to make solid Catholics of your students -- some of whom might become priests, some of whom might get married and will have the Faith solid in their minds so they can teach their kids with solid thinking they've learned from you! You can play a big part of "the restoration," Papist, and don't you forget it!

"Summa cum laude" --- right on!

Vox, why don't you use clearer, unambiguous terminology such as Catholics "suffering from same-sex attraction"?  (Following the lead of, say, LifeSiteNews and other orthodox, but typically *non*-traditional Catholic sources.)

Such a phrase emphasizes that all homosexual behavior is disordered and mortally sinful.

The moniker "homosexual" implies nothing about whether or not that person is engaging in the objective mortal sin of homosexual acts, or not.  It plays into the disordered, modern view of SSA which completely ignores the most critical distinction between orientation and *behavior*.

(Note: I read the first post but not the entire thread.)
For crying out loud people!  There is NO SUCH THING as an objective mortal sin!  All mortal sin is subjective.
(02-26-2014, 09:25 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]Vox, why don't you use clearer, unambiguous terminology such as Catholics "suffering from same-sex attraction"?  (Following the lead of, say, LifeSiteNews and other orthodox, but typically *non*-traditional Catholic sources.)

Such a phrase emphasizes that all homosexual behavior is disordered and mortally sinful.

The moniker "homosexual" implies nothing about whether or not that person is engaging in the objective mortal sin of homosexual acts, or not.  It plays into the disordered, modern view of SSA which completely ignores the most critical distinction between orientation and *behavior*.

(Note: I read the first post but not the entire thread.)
I don't think we should quibble here too much. Homosexual really just means some one who is attracted to members of the same sex.
(02-26-2014, 09:49 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]For crying out loud people!  There is NO SUCH THING as an objective mortal sin!  All mortal sin is subjective.

Objective grave matter then - a sin that, if committed with consent of the will and knowledge, is mortal. 

This is just semantics.
(02-26-2014, 09:53 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-26-2014, 09:25 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]Vox, why don't you use clearer, unambiguous terminology such as Catholics "suffering from same-sex attraction"?  (Following the lead of, say, LifeSiteNews and other orthodox, but typically *non*-traditional Catholic sources.)

Such a phrase emphasizes that all homosexual behavior is disordered and mortally sinful.

The moniker "homosexual" implies nothing about whether or not that person is engaging in the objective mortal sin of homosexual acts, or not.  It plays into the disordered, modern view of SSA which completely ignores the most critical distinction between orientation and *behavior*.

(Note: I read the first post but not the entire thread.)
I don't think we should quibble here too much. Homosexual really just means some one who is attracted to members of the same sex.

No, it doesn't, *at all*.  In popular culture, "homosexual" means a person who engages in homosexual sex, or is in or has been in a homosexual relationship.  

That's why the term "same-sex attraction" was coined, really - to distinguish chaste people with SSA from homosexuals that act upon their disordered inclinations.
(02-26-2014, 09:10 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]For the most part I consider it a private struggle, and I am not sure that there is any benefit to myself or to others in sharing it. I could be wrong. The Eastern Orthodox monk Fr. Seraphim Rose was open about his past and his struggles in this matter, but he was a very saintly man.

I agree with this, Papist.

Have you read this story before? http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/12/...unuch.html

The Orthodox have uniformly retained a very good understanding of same-sex attractions. Broadly-speaking, you won't find pro-gay orthodox, gay-liberation orthodox, moderate orthodox, or conservative orthodox. In this matter, they're just Orthodox.

Quote:It's interesting that several of us observe that when we have healthy friendships with men, the SSA is not an issue. It's good evidence that SSA is not an orientation in the way that secular society would like us to think but, rather, it is a defect indicating developmental issues.

This was my case in 2010. After having spent 3 years in almost total isolation (not leaving my home more than 20 times in 36 months) due to extreme anxiety and self-hatred, I went out to become Catholic. I had only seen the Latin Mass, and I was expecting that when I went to the local cathedral. I was disappointed, but thankfully the first people I meet were very well-formed Franciscans. Not having ever known friendship or helpful father figures, coming into contact with these mature, purposeful Christians was like a revelation. Having befriended one of them very closely over a period of several months, there came one point, on a single day, when I spontaneously envisioned making love to a wife, and for some reason it seemed good and desirable. That happened only once, when I was just reaching that point between "newness" of friendship and intimacy in friendship with a mature, self-contained human being. I've not had such a desire for the opposite sex since. I wonder if this is connected with the fact that I developed a very unhealthy attraction toward this very masculine friend thereafter?

When I saw my friend more as a role model in a "disinterested friendship", as the Catechism says, I was suddenly "becoming straight'; when I started to cling more to him, to use him, and to possess him, I developed an extreme affection for him bordering on obsessive love. We are still close friends, by the way, but he has had to put up very intense boundaries in the midst of our intimacy, at least until I am healed. He is an incredibly patient man, and still makes time to discuss things with me despite having been ordained a priest. He's no traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination, but he has a traditional understanding of the passions. This has helped immensely, and the more detached I become from the "need" of his strong personality (as a boy needs his dad), the less my homosexual passions flare up.

Others' same-sex attractions may not be based on immaturity, anxiety, and lack of growth like mine... but I will always hold to my theory about nurture over nature. Either way, it's gonna be a long haul to Heaven.

(02-26-2014, 09:15 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]One reason that readily comes to mind is that there aren't fetishist activists wanting to re-define marriage or push information about their fetishes into the heads of 6 year olds. Homosexualist activists (which, again, I totally distinguish from mere homosexuals) are a force that needs to be confronted and dealt with.

This is a good point. Even as an atheist, I was disgusted with the gay-activism groups around me. Being a conservative, pro-life atheist could only last so long, I guess. Either abandon logical positions, or abandon your atheism. :LOL: Even in high school I was really pissed off at the "gay pride" events and the "gay-straight alliance", and their stupid day of silence, wearing tape over their mouths to protest whatever-the-heck. I despise superficiality and publicity stunts. It's why I don't like most gays I meet (those who identify as Gay, mind you)...: they're just so bloody gimmicky about their lives. The most I ever did to support the gay movement was watch "Queer as Folk" (absolutely evil, demonic trash, btw - don't watch it). When I realized that the Lifestyle is all superficial sexuality, dance clubs, drugs, and hopeless cycles of abandonment, I definitively said 'no'. I believe that was the moment God began supernaturally working in my own individual life, turning the gears to bring me to the river of living water which flows from the One seated upon the Throne, and the Lamb.

Vox Clamantis Wrote:A good percentage of homosexuals have really good taste LOL

I wouldn't say that about the extremely "fey" ones who made everything fabulous. I do believe some very, very tasteless homosexuals were behind the 1960s-1970s revolution in church design and furnishing. Can you honestly imagine a self-confidently straight man, in full bloom of masculinity, approving felt banners for the 'worship space'?

Vox Clamantis Wrote:I want to grab you and hug you so hard right now. Oh, my gosh.. You are NOT "useless, worthless, or pointless" -- "even as" a homosexual. No! Oh, no, no, no, Heorot! You are a beloved child of God Himself, adopted son of the Father through the grace of Christ! You are so loved that if you could feel it, you'd die of it! God most certainly has plans for you. You must believe this -- trust in this. Trust in Jesus. Make yourself of service to others -- especially if you can do it in a way that uses any special gifts you might have (drawing, teaching, etc.) Teach RCIA classes! Write a blog to help other homosexual Catholics! Become a teacher! Or do the old "soup kitchen routine" to serve others. You are here to love God and love others. That's what ALL of us are here to do, whether we're married or priests or single. You just have to find your way of doing that the best way you can, that's all. That's what we ALL have to do! We're not so different! I'm a 51-year old, broke-ass, bipolar woman who got dumped -- and I SMOKE. Ya know? We are legion, folks like you and me! We're fine -- or, if we're not right at the moment, we will be, can be! And if we have bad days or nights sometimes -- well, that's what friends are for.

MAN do I really want to start that "club" thing now... Sheesh!

Thank you for the sisterly encouragement, Vox. My problem is probably personal: I have a very warped vision of the Body of Christ based on my own anxiety, probably resultant from years of intense self-deprecation. I do not see any vocation except priesthood as meaningful - probably because I want to be a priest, but feel too weak and too sinful in my same-sex attractions, rejected by the Church. I've always had a huge problem with rejection, abandonment, and loneliness... and I believe the experiences which cause those fears also led to developing homosexual desires. The lack of friends, and the closeness other guys seemed to experience, built up inside me over years and years of isolation, and I wanted to possess every part of them, including their sexuality. I never could, and it became worse and worse until I became incapable of seeing myself as anything other than a faggot, scum, and worthless to every part of the world.

This may sound like a psychotherapy session and overly dramatic, but I assure you I never pour this out to anyone. The psychs I've been to have been atheistic liberals, and if I ever mentioned the same-sex attractions, they'd ignore them as perfectly normal. I'm sure if I'd said they were unwanted attractions, the psychologists would've preferred that I reconcile myself with the attractions, rather than with the will of God for mankind.

Ironically, despite the fearsome picture of Christians that the Westboro Baptist types gave me as an atheist, I've never met a single Catholic who was violently homophobic. The first person I ever told was a Franciscan brother who is so saintly he might as well just be a puppy on the doorstep of Heaven. The second was a brother from Italy, the third a brother from Germany, and then on and on. The only trad I ever knew outside Fishies was very disturbed by the information, and we never talked about it after a single mention. I think some trad mindsets have a Puritan-like aspect, at least in North America. They don't just see this issue as a perversion, but something simply to ignore, very awkwardly and nervously, hoping it goes away.

You know, the only thing I desire as a human being is friendship. To me, a close friend really has to know about the SSA I experience, because it has defined my self-image so much that to leave it out would be a grave omission in a close friendship based on trust. The dilemma is that I don't believe SSA defines my humanity. There's no such thing as a Gay Person or a Homosexual Person. Using those terms furthers Satan's plan for that movement, believe me! They want to take hold of as many titles as they can. "SSAs" is a simple plural noun for us.

By the way, Vox, I actually started a blog after seeing this thread. Needs to be set up properly.
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