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I am starting this thread, inspired by how the Uganda, Christ and gay people thread (in the Secular News, Politics, & Social Issues" sub-forum) is turning out. My last posts in that thread included:

Quote:There are lots of homosexuals who are trads -- or trads who are homosexuals, however you want to look at it. God bless them. I am always amazed by the bravery some homosexuals have in "outing themselves" in a Christian venue, such as this forum. While in the secular world, it takes little bravery to come out (except maybe to one's family and friends), in some Christian circles there is such sloppy thinking and sloppy talk about this topic that letting others in those circles know you're homosexual takes guts, it seems to me. There's such a backlash against what the activist homosexualists are doing that some Christians forget their Catechism and, worse, forget the Two Great Commandments Jesus Himself gave us:  to love God, and to love our neighbor. Backlash always leads to backlash which leads to backlash. I wish folks would remember that when they think and talk about homosexuality and homosexuals, about women and misogyny and feminism, about protecting children and keeping them innocent without making them ignorant, etc. It's all so stupid.

... I think -- and hope -- that you're wrong about Catholics of all stripes not wanting homosexuals to be able to conduct their lives with integrity in terms of just being and revealing who they are. At least I can say this:  on this forum, homosexuals are MOST welcome. Not just welcome to be here and post, but to post about their struggles, their identities, their feelings, how they go about remaining chaste, how they pick themselves up if they stumble, and so on. I'm a traditional Catholic INFJ and I run this place. That's just how it's going to be.

In response, I got this:

Ptochos Wrote:As my bravery - well, there is a certain anonymity in an online group. And I have a gift for skipping over the truly unpleasant things people might say online. However, I'd never "come out" to my parish as a whole and would only do so in the Confessional and perhaps with close friends in the parish.

You are right, though. It is much easier to be an active homosexual in the world than to be a chaste SSA person in the traditional Catholic world. Perhaps that is why I keep a foot in both worlds - the TLM world and the NO world. There are very holy, devout, orthodox Novus Ordo Catholics out there - even in a diocese as liberal as Baltimore's.

First, I find it interesting that Ptochos seems to include the "NO world" in with "the world," which he distinguishes from "the TLM world." Interesting -- and telling!

Second of all, I find it heartbreaking that he finds it easier to be a "chaste SSA person" in the "Novus Ordo world" than in "the TLM world." I want that to change. Not just for him, but for ALL homosexuals who love Christ and Tradition. Like I said in my post above, "on this forum, homosexuals are MOST welcome. Not just welcome to be here and post, but to post about their struggles, their identities, their feelings, how they go about remaining chaste, how they pick themselves up if they stumble, and so on. I'm a traditional Catholic INFJ and I run this place. That's just how it's going to be." And I wish for the entire trad world to be that way for homosexual trads. I want for folks of all types, all races, all ethnic groups, with all sorts of disorders and struggles and temptations, to be able to be "real" about who they are, loved for who they are, helped on their journeys, and inspired to refrain from sin and love God and each other. (I know that makes me "a fag hag" to some folks on a certain other forum. Fine by me. If my above sentiments make for "a fag hag," then a fag hag I proudly am.)

So, to that end, I am wanting in this thread to hear about the experiences, feelings, and thoughts of traditional Catholic homosexuals. I want to know what it is like for them to be trad and homosexual, how they navigate things, whether they feel as if they can be honest in traditionalist circles about who they are, what fears (if any) they have about that, what they think other trads can do to help them on their journeys, things they would like to see changed about how some trads talk about the issue of homosexuality and about homosexuals, things that other trads might not understand and which they'd like to explain, their thoughts about linguistic matters as they touch on this topic (e.g., "homosexual" vs. "gay" vs. "SSA," and so forth), etc.

If there's a homosexual trad out there who has something to say but who doesn't want to be "out," that person can send me an email and I will post it for him/her, removing anything that could identify that person, and all with the promise to never, ever reveal that person's identity (my email: tracy@fisheaters.com ).

For the sake of reference, here's the Catechism on the topic of homosexuality:

Catechism Wrote:Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

So, thoughts, please? Ideas? Feelings? Fears? Things you wish straight trads knew? Things you wish you could change about "the trad world" in general with regard to how it handles homosexuality and treats homosexuals? Experiences you've had that have helped -- or hurt? Talk to us! Teach us something...

May heterosexual users also post in this thread?
If yes,
then I only want to say that it has never been a problem for me to acknowledge that there most probably are many good, faithful, and better than I Catholics who are homosexual. To commit the sin of sodomy is a very, very grave matter, no doubt. But it's not the end of the world, as there's the Sacrament of Confession. To paraphrase our Vicar of Christ: who am I to judge a gay/lesbian person who is very sorry for their sins, confesses them and sincerely wants to change? God showed me His mercy many times, and I only can thank him that he does show it others. I cannot imagine how a person who does not claim that their sexual tendencies are something good and who does not promote this 'lifestyle' could be rejected, mocked, etc. None of us is perfect, and if people other than the priests I confess my sins to knew my sins they would totally reject me. But a homosexual person living in chastity/on their way to confession/after confession is, for me, like a person suffering from some other sort of mental disorder. Someone we should be most understanding for (which is not to be confused with behaving as if they were oh-the-most-needy-persons-I-must-show-them-my-support).

But I don't live in a trad world. I go to the Tridentine Mass, but I don't personally know anybody there and don't want to get to know. I'm too afraid to meet new people. But anyway, on a daily basis I live with liberal people (including moderately liberal Catholics), so I will find it most interesting to hear from homosexual trads about their experience. Heck, I actually don't really know any gay personally (that is, who would be open about it), so perhaps this forum will be the first place where I might exchange thoughts with homosexual people.

P.S. I just had this thought that there's more rejoicing in Heaven when, for example, Oscar Wilde at his deathbed truly wants to join (and as far as I know does join) our Church, is contrite, etc., than when the guys from Westboro Baptist Church say God hates the world.
I have considered myself a Trad for a while now, but I actually attend a Byzantine Catholic Church. I have also struggled with SSA since I can remember, and my experience is diverse. For the most part, I keep my SSA to myself, and only really share it in anonymous venues like this one. However, I have had several very orthodox Catholic friends come right out and ask me if I struggled with SSA (apparently I'm not Mr. Macho Man, though some interpret that as me being a geek). I was close enough to these individuals so that I felt comfortable sharing information about my struggles with them (of course it was not graphic sharing). These good friends offered no judgment, but only love and encouraged me to continuing living a chaste life in Christ.

However, there are other individuals who have been more hostile, particularly some of the posters who were purged from this forum last summer. It seems that these people defined how traditional they were based on how weired out they were by gay people. I'll never understand that. Yet, I'm not that wimp who was hurt by this. I actually felt sorry for these people because it seemed like they had missed the entire point of the gospel. Being a trad is not about being a jerk, it's about living the historic Catholic faith, in service to Christ, pure and undiluted.

One of the interesting things I often hear is that a struggle with SSA is just like any other struggle with the virtue of chastity; yet, I would argue to the contrary. People who have a healthy heterosexual orientation, for the most part, can get married and work out their salvation in a life of companionship. True, that life has its difficulties, but it is a natural state of affairs. As God himself said, "It is not good that he should be alone." Even those heterosexuals who do not marry can become priests, and yes this comes with its own struggles, but it is certainly a life of meaning.

Both of these doors are closed to those who struggle with SSA, and it is very easy to succumb to the temptation to despair of a meaningful life. Yes, we must keep in mind our supernatural end, but it is quite a struggle. Though, I keep in mind, that the great the cross, the greater the reward.
I think that understanding that since same-sex attraction is a disorder, it's not easy to categorize and treat SSA as a "cookie cutter" temptation.  For example, what may be a clear occasion of sin for one homosexual person may be completely neutral, or even spiritually helpful, for another.  The example, for me, is community life.  Some have raised the point with me before, when saying that I would like to live in a religious community, that being in the constant company of men would be a temptation...what they don't understand, though, is that for me, building strong, fraternal, chaste relationships with other men is helpful in the struggle against sin.  For some, though, this may not be the case.  SSA is like any other disorder--it may wax and wane, be stronger for some than others, and manifest itself in various ways.  Not everyone who is "depressed" manifests the same symptoms, or endures the same experiences.  Not everyone who suffers from, I don't know, high blood pressure, or diabetes experiences the same things.  
(02-26-2014, 06:06 PM)2HearsServant Wrote: [ -> ]I think that understanding that since same-sex attraction is a disorder, it's not easy to categorize and treat SSA as a "cookie cutter" temptation.  For example, what may be a clear occasion of sin for one homosexual person may be completely neutral, or even spiritually helpful, for another.  The example, for me, is community life.  Some have raised the point with me before, when saying that I would like to live in a religious community, that being in the constant company of men would be a temptation...what they don't understand, though, is that for me, building strong, fraternal, chaste relationships with other men is helpful in the struggle against sin.  For some, though, this may not be the case.  SSA is like any other disorder--it may wax and wane, be stronger for some than others, and manifest itself in various ways.  Not everyone who is "depressed" manifests the same symptoms, or endures the same experiences.  Not everyone who suffers from, I don't know, high blood pressure, or diabetes experiences the same things.  
I can agree with your experience. When I build healthy male friendships, with good men, I feel little to no sextual desire towards them.
The Westboro Baptist Church people should not even be mentioned they are less than a dozen crackpots. They don't even have the true faith, aren't they in for a surprise  LOL LOL LOL  AS for SSA we should treat  everybody as kindly as possible if a person opens up to you about his struggle that is them saying they think your a person that has the morals to deal with these issues. Because of Original Sin we live in a fallen world(the evidence is all around us) so these kind of struggles by people should never surprise us. If you went up to a person and told them about your SSA and they got mad or rejected you that says more about them than you. If your  honest i think the overwhelming majority of trads knowing your not pushing the lifestyle but battling it within would welcome you. I know their are blowhards who yell about things at trad places but that is in a group on a one on one basis i think they might surprise you. Those with the struggle we will need you to reach lost SSA folks , so keep up the good work. Now we need a thread for those straight folks who give in to all kinds of crap  LOL LOL LOL LOL
(02-26-2014, 05:56 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]I have considered myself a Trad for a while now, but I actually attend a Byzantine Catholic Church. I have also struggled with SSA since I can remember, and my experience is diverse. For the most part, I keep my SSA to myself, and only really share it in anonymous venues like this one.

Why is that the case, Papist? Is it because you just don't care to mention it, consider it a private struggle for the most part, etc., or because of fear of being judged, or -- ?

(02-26-2014, 05:56 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]However, I have had several very orthodox Catholic friends come right out and ask me if I struggled with SSA (apparently I'm not Mr. Macho Man, though some interpret that as me being a geek). I was close enough to these individuals so that I felt comfortable sharing information about my struggles with them (of course it was not graphic sharing). These good friends offered no judgment, but only love and encouraged me to continuing living a chaste life in Christ.

Well, whadyaknow? Real live Christians!

(02-26-2014, 05:56 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]However, there are other individuals who have been more hostile, particularly some of the posters who were purged from this forum last summer. It seems that these people defined how traditional they were based on how weired out they were by gay people. I'll never understand that. Yet, I'm not that wimp who was hurt by this. I actually felt sorry for these people because it seemed like they had missed the entire point of the gospel. Being a trad is not about being a jerk, it's about living the historic Catholic faith, in service to Christ, pure and undiluted.

A big good riddance to those people. We're all sinners, but some folks have malice in them, which, to me, is on a totally different level of evil than folks stumbling with regard to addiction, sexual desire, etc. While I won't judge the souls of those folks either, I'd guess that Christ looks at malice as worse than, say, an alcoholic getting drunk one night after years on the wagon. When one of the Two Great Commandments is "love your neighbor, it seems a pretty obvious thing to me.

Anyway, I'm sorry you and others (and I, for that matter) had to deal with that crap. Banning the lot of the "toxic trad types" was a good thing, and I think the forum has been MUCH better off since then.

(02-26-2014, 05:56 PM)Papist Wrote: [ -> ]One of the interesting things I often hear is that a struggle with SSA is just like any other struggle with the virtue of chastity; yet, I would argue to the contrary. People who have a healthy heterosexual orientation, for the most part, can get married and work out their salvation in a life of companionship. True, that life has its difficulties, but it is a natural state of affairs. As God himself said, "It is not good that he should be alone." Even those heterosexuals who do not marry can become priests, and yes this comes with its own struggles, but it is certainly a life of meaning.

Both of these doors are closed to those who struggle with SSA, and it is very easy to succumb to the temptation to despair of a meaningful life. Yes, we must keep in mind our supernatural end, but it is quite a struggle. Though, I keep in mind, that the great the cross, the greater the reward.

While it's true that marriage and the priesthood are closed to homosexuals, it's also true -- especially in this culture -- that decent spouses are hard to find. And spouses can dump you, leaving you in the same situation homosexuals are in. Or they die (and women after the age of 40 are not very likely to find another spouse). All of this I'm saying to just point out that there are lots of straight people in the situation of being sexual beings, young and vibrant, wanting sexual intimacy -- but unable to express their love for another in a sexual way. There are, undoubtedly, a lot more of them numerically than there are homosexuals in that same boat. But it is so, too, as you say, that the hope could always be there (e.g., maybe the spouse who dumped you dies, or you're one of the few women whom men hit on after the age of 30 Sticking tongue out at you )

Your last paragraph is really sad to me and makes me want to repeat something I've said before on this forum (many times, after all these years):  the old school way of veritably pushing folks into marriage or a monastery/seminary was bad, and there are some trads who still think that way (a small sub-set, thank God). There is room in the world for all the folks who don't have religious or priestly vocations, who aren't called to marriage, who might think they're called to marriage but can't find a spouse, etc. Maybe one thing the Church could do is talk more about the single life and ways of making the celibate life as meaningful and as rich as possible. There are sooooo many things that the single can do that folks with families, or the religious, don't have the time to do, for ex. Maybe we need a "Singles Club" (but with a better name so it doesn't sound like a dating club) for straight folks and homosexuals and whoever who are committed to chastity and who want to engage in service to others, maybe evangelize in the streets together, or do random acts of kindness in the Name of Jesus together. In addition to helping set up volunteer stuff, it could also act as a sub-community of the Church for celibate, non-ordained/non-religious folks to get together and socialize, have some fun, and have each others' backs spiritually. (Man, I wish I had a bigger house (with a kitchen) and some money! I'd SO start something like this in my home!)

In any case, don't despair about not having a meaningful life just because you can't marry or become a priest! There's so, SO much you can do! Your being single frees you up to do a lot of things folks with kids just can't because kids are such a "time-suck"! Being single can be seen as a gift in that way!

(02-26-2014, 08:02 PM)salus Wrote: [ -> ](snip) If you went up to a person and told them about your SSA and they got mad or rejected you that says more about them than you. If your  honest i think the overwhelming majority of trads knowing your not pushing the lifestyle but battling it within would welcome you. I know their are blowhards who yell about things at trad places but that is in a group on a one on one basis i think they might surprise you.

I'd guess you're right about how folks one-on-one can be very different from their nasty blowhard personae they show on the internet. Still, those people need to stifle, to get real, to get some prudence about themselves, and realize that they are hurting people and, hurting the trad "movement," and harming the very Body of Christ with their bigoted, irrational, and ugly nonsense. I just can't put up with that stuff here, anyway. It's good to not have to cringe when looking at the forum anymore (at least 95% of the time anyway). It's a great relief to me that the toxic trads are gone, at least for the most part.
Thank you for this thread and your appeal to charity, Vox. What a beautiful statement you made in that large paragraph about all races and peoples. Truly, we are called by name by Christ, regardless of our sins. He came to be sacrificed and resurrected for the glory of the Father, that our worthless little human glorifications, tinged by sin, might become truly mighty praises offered in a deserving manner to the God of Hosts. That sacrifice continues daily, hourly, across the world for all us unworthy sinners.

I am very ambivalent about the attitude that most people - gay, straight, traditionalist, liberal - take in this matter. If we're going to have a "gay trads" thread, why not have "trads who love legs", "trads who love backsides", and "trads who love breasts" threads? That is very crude, but it illustrates a conviction I always had, even as an atheist: our sexual attractions are not us. Having a fetish for legs or other parts of the female body, in straight men, is just as twisted as having a fetish for members of the same sex. One distorts the humanity of the female he is attracted to, and the other distorts the image of God in what he is attracted to, by shifting it to members of his own sex.

Anyway, this thread is a good opportunity, so I should not disparage it!

I am 25, male, a little overweight, with glasses, and a full but short beard. Broad shoulders. Not immediately obvious as one to be trifled with, or a stereotypical ponce or fruit. I wear polo shirts casually and a full suit & tie when I go to church. I am quiet, intellectual, melancholic, and INFJ. I am a ridiculously excitable person in the realm of sexuality, but that probably just comes with youth. I draw architectural drafts while dreaming of restoring Romanesque and Classical styles to Catholic churches, and help with English-language tutoring for Italians in this area. I despise the gay lifestyle and think it is entirely from Satan. Due to extreme depression and anxiety throughout my teenage years, however, I never left the house much, so I was never drawn into the Lifestyle. There's a gay bar in this city, but it might as well have been 3000 miles away. Thanks be to God.

I'd say I am a trad, but I live in a place where there are no licit 1962 Masses celebrated for more than 100 miles in every direction. I've enver heard a novus ordo priest say anything overtly accepting of homosexuality, gay marriage, or whatever. They do get ambiguous, saying we need to accept everyone, love everyone, etc., with all the abandonment of Catholic teaching which that style of speech can imply. This is a very boring, usual liberal diocese with not-particularly-holy Masses, but nothing particularly wild either. I basically just feel lost and empty here... but it's better than being in a den of iniquity like San Francisco or a pit of heresy like Amsterdam. I long for the reverent Mass, the Mass that has content. Sometimes I wonder if it's due to the innate psychological tendencies to melodrama, ballet, and showing-off. I fully admit that all gay men have this interest - the Oxford movement was filled with homosexuals, effeminate men, and pederasts. They loved the hangings and incense and flowers and bells and colours.

I believe male homosexuality (or, better, same-sex attractions) is caused by neglect, abuse, a distant father, loneliness, and emptiness. One simply does not grow up properly when under constant anxiety, which causes self-obsession, which leads to a sense of brokenness and entitlement. That feeling of being broken leads to you looking at other gay men (who are similarly psychologically broken) and, instead of seeing the image of God, seeing your own self. You attach to them, and almost want to comfort and embrace your own self in them. Genetic causes will never be found for homosexuality. It's all about not having becoming a man, in the ethical and virtuous sense... and that can be traced to a relationship with the father and mother. Nurture, not nature! We all sin in our fallen nature, but particular sins are formed by the way we live.

My great desire is to be a religious and/or priest of any kind. Franciscan, Dominican, Carthusian, diocesan, clerk, canon - anything sacred. I have lately seen that this is actually a wish to break free from the smothering feeling of being useless, worthless, and pointless as a "fag". Having had these exclusively-male-directed urges since I was 11 years old, my whole adolescence and adulthood has been formed by them. I have given up impurity, and would never go anywhere near a gay man who looked at me in a queer fashion. I have zero attraction to boys, and would never act on such attractions anyway. It doesn't look as if I'd ever be able to apply to become a seminarian or brother in good conscience, however, as the Church has always been very clear about the emotional and spiritual state required for that.

Since I have no interest in women and hate dishonesty, I cannot force myself to marry. Along with Papist, I've pretty much come to accept that I'll be a pointless, useless lay-person, celibate and alone, for the rest of my life. That is how I see it when I am in darkness. When in the light of joy and hope, I know that I can never be alone if I am in the state of grace - and even if I am not, Christ is still creating me and sending forth His Spirit to keep me in existence. Praise God. There is so much more to life than sexuality.
I agree with the above as well.  The men that i have been most attracted to was because i romanticized their mystique.  Once that turned into a friendship where the mystery was gone, the attraction went with it.
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