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Full Version: The Catholic Church forbids circumcision for any reason!
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(02-28-2014, 12:19 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-28-2014, 12:14 AM)Chestertonian Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-28-2014, 12:00 AM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]Rape, that leaves worse emotional scars, so that's probably worse, but then again, circumcision on an unwilling person is a type of rape.


I can't even.

You're held down forcibly while someone permanently cuts off a part of your body.

Yeah, that's rape.

Melkite,
You are certainly entitled to your feelings and beliefs, but circumcision is not rape.  If it was done to you as an infant you won't remember it and it was hopefully done by a medical professional in a sterile setting.  It is not rape.
I'm not shouting and people are free to have their views, but when people go on and on about circumcision being this great evil and people who get circumcisions or circumcise there kids are lower than rats, that's where I draw the line.

As for you accusing me of accusing others being hysterical....calling parents who circumcise their children for therapeutic reasons and placing it on the same level as rape...IS being hysterical in my book. If you think I'm going to far, then so be it. But most people I know (those without an agenda) would call that going to far, in fact some people have mentioned it was going too far.

Also I am indifferent on the issue. If parents wish to circumcise or not...it's their business. I'm not as biased on it, as opposed to say vaccinations. However the Church Teaches against religious circumcision. So you're wrong on trying to draw more out from St Paul and attach it to all forms of circumcision.

If Catholic parents wanted to do a bris, I'd be against it and tell them NO cause of Church Teaching. If they circumcise or not circumcise on the grounds of medicinal or therapeutic reasons, then it's their choice.


Either way we won't seem to agree on this and I'm going to back off. I don't have a dog in this fight or a bone to pick, it's not worth my time or energy.
(02-28-2014, 09:08 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]Melkite,
You are certainly entitled to your feelings and beliefs, but circumcision is not rape.  If it was done to you as an infant you won't remember it and it was hopefully done by a medical professional in a sterile setting.  It is not rape.

By that logic, a guy who uses rohipnol and a condom isn't a rapist either, as long as the girl doesn't remember and he's clean about it.

If you are ok with your circumcision, i'm happy for you.  Mine makes me feel dirty, emasculated, violated and helpless.  Disregard my feelings all you want, i was raped.
(02-28-2014, 09:22 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-28-2014, 09:08 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]Melkite,
You are certainly entitled to your feelings and beliefs, but circumcision is not rape.  If it was done to you as an infant you won't remember it and it was hopefully done by a medical professional in a sterile setting.  It is not rape.

By that logic, a guy who uses rohipnol and a condom isn't a rapist either, as long as the girl doesn't remember and he's clean about it.

If you are ok with your circumcision, i'm happy for you.  Mine makes me feel dirty, emasculated, violated and helpless.  Disregard my feelings all you want, i was raped.

Melikite, I'm sorry that you feel so empty because you were circumcised. But please man get some help for it. It's no good carrying this thing on your back. Give it up to God, you do realize you can restore your foreskin, Geremina has a post on another thread. So it's not like all hope is lost, you can regain the feeling and function of a foreskin, sure it may not be exactly like a foreskin, but that's a cross you can bear.

Just get help, don't carry this grudge around your whole life, it's not good.
(02-28-2014, 09:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not shouting and people are free to have their views, but when people go on and on about circumcision being this great evil and people who get circumcisions or circumcise there kids are lower than rats, that's where I draw the line.

As for you accusing me of accusing others being hysterical....calling parents who circumcise their children for therapeutic reasons and placing it on the same level as rape...IS being hysterical in my book. If you think I'm going to far, then so be it. But most people I know (those without an agenda) would call that going to far, in fact some people have mentioned it was going too far.

I wasn't even referring mostly to this thread. You accuse folks of "hysteria" and being "emotional," of "yelling" and such as a habit. You've done it to me many times even though such accusations weren't even close to true.

I don't see circumcision as "rape." I do see it as the amputation of a healthy body part for no sound medical reason in the overwhelming majority of the cases. I also see it as something the Church teaches against, which She does.

(02-28-2014, 09:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Also I am indifferent on the issue. If parents wish to circumcise or not...it's their business. I'm not as biased on it, as opposed to say vaccinations. However the Church Teaches against religious circumcision. So you're wrong on trying to draw more out from St Paul and attach it to all forms of circumcision.

If Catholic parents wanted to do a bris, I'd be against it and tell them NO cause of Church Teaching. If they circumcise or not circumcise on the grounds of medicinal or therapeutic reasons, then it's their choice.

Either way we won't seem to agree on this and I'm going to back off. I don't have a dog in this fight or a bone to pick, it's not worth my time or energy.

I haven't even referred to St. Paul. The Council of Florence is what the OP spoke of, and then there's the Catechism: "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law."  Some parents might think that routine circumcision is "therapeutic," but they are wrong according to the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Cancer Society, the Canadian Paediatric Society, etc.

So if the above medical associations are right, and the Church teaches against "directly intended amputations, mutilations" not performed for strictly therapeutic reasons, if Christians have been taught by the Church to not cicumcise for religious reasons and in light of the above teaching from the Catechism, then why circumcise? The only reason left that I can think off is "Daddy's circumcised, so Junior should be, too." And that doesn't strike me as a good reason for lopping off body parts that go to making the marital act much more pleasant for both husband and wife.



austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Melikite, I'm sorry that you feel so empty because you were circumcised. But please man get some help for it. It's no good carrying this thing on your back. Give it up to God, you do realize you can restore your foreskin, Geremina has a post on another thread. So it's not like all is lost, you can regain the feeling and function of a foreskin, sure it may not be exactly like a foreskin, but that's a cross you can bear.

Just get help, don't carry this grudge around your whole life, it's not good.

I appreciate the sincerity of your sympathy, despite my hostility before.  Foreskin restoration doesn't work.  I've tried it when i was younger, i was not able to grow any new skin.  For those that are able to, it only grows new skin, it does not regrow any of the lost nerve endings, estrogen receptors or pheromone producers.  That is all gone for good.  So unfortunately for me, all hope is lost.  And i can appreciate that this isn't the worst thing that could possibly have happened to me.  But, barring significant advances in stem cell research in the near future, all hope is lost.  I can't even realistically hope for a true regeneration in the resurrection.  The foreskin is a thing of this world, my only chance at having a whole body is in this world.  That was eternally robbed from me before i was old enough to fight back.  You'll have to forgive me, but rather then letting go, i have to fight to make it so parents legally can never do this to their children again.  I believe you when you say you had no ill intent in doing this to your son, but you still never had the right to subject your son to it.  It is objectively immoral when there is no immediate medical necessity.  Defenseless children have to be protected from the error of their parents, no matter how well meaning their intent is.
(02-28-2014, 09:22 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-28-2014, 09:08 PM)lumine Wrote: [ -> ]Melkite,
You are certainly entitled to your feelings and beliefs, but circumcision is not rape.  If it was done to you as an infant you won't remember it and it was hopefully done by a medical professional in a sterile setting.  It is not rape.

By that logic, a guy who uses rohipnol and a condom isn't a rapist either, as long as the girl doesn't remember and he's clean about it.

If you are ok with your circumcision, i'm happy for you.  Mine makes me feel dirty, emasculated, violated and helpless.  Disregard my feelings all you want, i was raped.

Your reasoning is off.  Rape is sexual assault, unwanted and forced or coerced.  Your parents made a decision to have you circumcised.  If you were an infant,  then you don't remember it.  It wasn't done as an assault on you.  You weren't a victim of a person who wanted a deviant, perverted control of you.  The doctor did not want to dominate and shame and humiliate you.  It was most likely done for "hygienic" reasons.  I don't know why you feel the way you do.  I don't know what happened to trigger this rage in you, but it sounds like you need to deal with it with a therapist.  

Yes, I am circumcised. No, it has not been an issue in my life, my married life.  I don't know where you are coming from or why, but you need to understand that circumcision is not rape.
(02-28-2014, 09:37 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-28-2014, 09:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not shouting and people are free to have their views, but when people go on and on about circumcision being this great evil and people who get circumcisions or circumcise there kids are lower than rats, that's where I draw the line.

As for you accusing me of accusing others being hysterical....calling parents who circumcise their children for therapeutic reasons and placing it on the same level as rape...IS being hysterical in my book. If you think I'm going to far, then so be it. But most people I know (those without an agenda) would call that going to far, in fact some people have mentioned it was going too far.

I wasn't even referring mostly to this thread. You accuse folks of "hysteria" and being "emotional," of "yelling" and such as a habit. You've done it to me many times even though such accusations weren't even close to true.

I don't see circumcision as "rape." I do see it as the amputation of a healthy body part for no sound medical reason in the overwhelming majority of the cases. I also see it as something the Church teaches against, which She does.

(02-28-2014, 09:12 PM)austenbosten Wrote: [ -> ]Also I am indifferent on the issue. If parents wish to circumcise or not...it's their business. I'm not as biased on it, as opposed to say vaccinations. However the Church Teaches against religious circumcision. So you're wrong on trying to draw more out from St Paul and attach it to all forms of circumcision.

If Catholic parents wanted to do a bris, I'd be against it and tell them NO cause of Church Teaching. If they circumcise or not circumcise on the grounds of medicinal or therapeutic reasons, then it's their choice.

Either way we won't seem to agree on this and I'm going to back off. I don't have a dog in this fight or a bone to pick, it's not worth my time or energy.

I haven't even referred to St. Paul. The Council of Florence is what the OP spoke of, and then there's the Catechism: "Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law."  Some parents might think that routine circumcision is "therapeutic," but they are wrong according to the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Cancer Society, the Canadian Paediatric Society, etc.

So if the above medical associations are right, and the Church teaches against "directly intended amputations, mutilations" not performed for strictly therapeutic reasons, if Christians have been taught by the Church to not cicumcise for religious reasons and in light of the above teaching from the Catechism, then why circumcise? The only reason left that I can think off is "Daddy's circumcised, so Junior should be, too." And that doesn't strike me as a good reason for lopping off body parts that go to making the marital act much more pleasant for both husband and wife.

I don't think I make calling things hysterical or over-the-top a habit, but I have seen comments on here I see as whoppers. Once again, something we won't agree on. And regarding me accusing you of being "hysterical" many times. That did occur, but that argument was one which never should have occurred, because A) I believed we were talking over each other. B) I believed that you were misunderstanding me.

Once again (not to bring it up) I never accused you nor do I think you're anti-Semetic....this is hopefully to settle any misunderstandings should they still exist.

Now onto the last part, I see your point and I agree it should not be taken so coy. One shouldn't circumcise just cause, simply because there is a risk (however small) and there's no need to do it if you don't agree with the data on regarding the benefits of circumcision. I plan on circumcising my children but I would do it for therapeutic reasons.

Michelle Arnold wrote something that sums up my view on this:

Quote:Circumcision was established by God and practiced by God's people in obedience to him for thousands of years until it was superceded by baptism. Given that, we must assume that God would not establish a ritual for his people that can be considered deliberate mutilation and thus intrinsically immoral.

Even so, parents who object to non-therapeutic circumcision have the right to refuse to circumcise their sons as a matter of conscience. They should, however, take care not to make their arguments against circumcision in such ways that it casts aspersion on the legitimate choice of other parents to circumcise.
(02-28-2014, 09:46 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]I appreciate the sincerity of your sympathy, despite my hostility before.  Foreskin restoration doesn't work.  I've tried it when i was younger, i was not able to grow any new skin.  For those that are able to, it only grows new skin, it does not regrow any of the lost nerve endings, estrogen receptors or pheromone producers.  That is all gone for good.  So unfortunately for me, all hope is lost.  And i can appreciate that this isn't the worst thing that could possibly have happened to me.  But, barring significant advances in stem cell research in the near future, all hope is lost.  I can't even realistically hope for a true regeneration in the resurrection.  The foreskin is a thing of this world, my only chance at having a whole body is in this world.  That was eternally robbed from me before i was old enough to fight back.  You'll have to forgive me, but rather then letting go, i have to fight to make it so parents legally can never do this to their children again.  I believe you when you say you had no ill intent in doing this to your son, but you still never had the right to subject your son to it.  It is objectively immoral when there is no immediate medical necessity.  Defenseless children have to be protected from the error of their parents, no matter how well meaning their intent is.

Melkite!  :O

Please don't tell me you were pinning your hopes on the deaths of aborted fetuses, just so you can have a piece of skin and some nerve-endings on your penis.


BTW Idk why you feel so low of yourself. You are still a functioning man. Foreskin or not, you are a man. Don't think less of yourself
(02-28-2014, 09:22 PM)Melkite Wrote: [ -> ]If you are ok with your circumcision, i'm happy for you.  Mine makes me feel dirty, emasculated, violated and helpless.  Disregard my feelings all you want, i was raped.

Are you saying that this was done against your will and you were held down and it was forced on you at a time in your life when you could remember it vividly? That would constitute sexual assault.

If it was done to you as an infant with the permission of your parents, then it wasn't rape or sexual assault.

I don't know what about it makes you feel dirty (sexually speaking?), and you certainly were not emasculated. Violated?  Not if it was done to you with permission from your parents.

I don't know what triggered all of this in you, but you have issues to deal with or you will needlessly burden yourself.
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