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OK, I admit the screaming headline was for the clicks. But it's kinda true.
I think it's an interesting article nonetheless, and the author fully admits her hypocrisy.

Quote:They can’t really justify it either; why they don’t feel comfortable with female leadership in one sphere but not in the other. “It’s just not traditional to have a woman rabbi,” shrugs an intelligent Jewish female lawyer friend of mine.
And, in a nutshell, that’s how I have always felt too.
[...]
Do I think women should be allowed to become bishops? Yes! Of course! It’s not my religion, after all. (Please note the intended facetiousness of this statement).

Full link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-...inist.html


_________________________All below this line modified by Vox to include entire article_________________________


Can you really be an Orthodox Jew and a feminist?
Male-led religions present a big dilemma to feminists in the modern world. Emma Barnett, an Orthodox Jew by upbringing and a feminist, explains how she sometimes struggles to reconcile the two sides of her life
By Emma Barnett, Women's Editor
7:00AM GMT 11 Mar 2014


I remember feeling shocked when I learned that my Jewish boyfriend, now husband, had grown up with a female rabbi. My surprise was two-fold: one that his rabbi wasn’t a man and secondly, that as a feminist, I even cared.

That conversation took place nearly a decade ago. And yet, it wasn’t until the issue of women bishops reached boiling point last year, and I lent my support to those trying to push the General Synod for female inclusion at the highest ranks of Christianity, I felt it time to explore my own illogical hypocrisy.

You see as a fully paid up feminist, I demand and expect total equality in my secular life and yet some would view what I accept as normal in my religious Jewish world, as anything but equal. Although believe me, no women in my personal Jewish life feel oppressed; if anything, they are in total control.

I am not a particularly observant Jew day-to-day. However, I did grow up in the Orthodox arm of Judaism, and so hadn’t even seen a female rabbi until I was 21.

Sitting separately from the men in synagogue, preparing the food for the congregation with a female group and only ever observing blokes leading prayer services, just seems customary in my Jewish world. It is all I have even known. These practices feel sisterly, homely and most of all, normal - how things have always been. And for a religion based heavily on the power of tradition, altering the rules of the club has never even occurred to me.

That’s why for the last few months, while making a programme for Radio 4, exploring whether you can be an Orthodox Jew and a feminist, I have had my eyes opened to what an unexplainable taboo this really is.

Interestingly, many of the Orthodox Jewish women I approached to share their feelings on the matter, refused to talk publicly about it – fearing a kickback in their successful secular life – where they champion women’s rights. They don’t want to explain their hypocrisy. Nor do they feel they need to challenge it.

They can’t really justify it either; why they don’t feel comfortable with female leadership in one sphere but not in the other. “It’s just not traditional to have a woman rabbi,” shrugs an intelligent Jewish female lawyer friend of mine.

And, in a nutshell, that’s how I have always felt too.

However, I also know that when my grandmother used to openly mistrust female GPs, her view was antiquated and just wasn’t based in truth. Likewise, when some of my male friends today ‘joke’ about their fears of having a female pilot or woman train driver, I don’t find their prejudiced views funny. And that’s because they are not; nor are they based on any form of logic.

In the secular world, common sense must be the order of the day. It isn’t reasonable not to have women occupying the same roles as men and vice versa. But in a religious sphere, where faith is the binding force of a group of people, rationale has less sway or place. If you started applying logic to the beliefs held in most faiths, things would start to fall apart pretty quickly at the seams.

Cue the increasing number of Jewish Orthodox feminists banging down my door to tell me we female Jews are ‘separate but equal’ and that I need to become more learned in the scriptures. Well the facts still remains, regardless of how educated you are in Orthodox Judaism, women aren’t permitted to be rabbis (in the fullest sense of the word – despite recent interesting developments).

Am I less ambitious in my religious life than I am in my secular one? Probably. These are not easy admissions to make. Do I feel the need to fight to change the religious world I infrequently inhabit? No. Not really.

Do I think women should be allowed to become bishops? Yes! Of course! It’s not my religion, after all. (Please note the intended facetiousness of this statement).

Not being able to reconcile my secular views with my religious ones is something I too, find hard to explain. Predominantly I struggle to feel comfortable with female rabbis because the Judaism that feels authentic to me is the Orthodox branch, which does everything it can to conserve and not change.

And that’s what it comes down to: what part of your religion feels authentic to you – which is very hard to alter when it’s been presented to you in a certain way since birth.

Male-led religions present a big dilemma to feminists in the modern world. And yes, on this topic, I am a full fat hypocrite. But as they say, faith begins often where logic ends.



thanks for that.... i need an aspirin now  :crazy:
Even though "salvation is from the Jews", why should we care what an admittedly hypocritical Jewish woman today has to say about either our bishops or their rabbis?  ???  :grin:
Article Wrote:I remember feeling shocked when I learned that my Jewish boyfriend, now husband, had grown up with a female rabbi. My surprise was two-fold: one that his rabbi wasn’t a man and secondly, that as a feminist, I even cared.

That conversation took place nearly a decade ago. And yet, it wasn’t until the issue of women bishops reached boiling point last year, and I lent my support to those trying to push the General Synod for female inclusion at the highest ranks of Christianity, I felt it time to explore my own illogical hypocrisy.

Here, she doesn't just "feel" whatever hypocritical feelings she feels, she "lent support" to those trying to screw up Christianity.  This is such a typical thing in the Jewish world. Israeli politics as contrasted with what Jewish lobbying groups do in Christian countries is the perfect example. Israel is for Jews and only Jews! Palestinians must go! Razing their homes to make way for Jewish settlers is fine! Not allowing people to "return" to Israel (though they've never been there in the first place) unless they have a Jewish mother -- that's great! But meanwhile, in Christian Europe and in the USA, the borders must be flung wide open, to anyone and everyone, at rates determined solely by those who want to live in those places! Europe for Christians? That's theocracy! But Israel for the Jews -- that just makes sense! It goes on and on and on.

Seriously, why did she think it her business to "lend support" to folks taking sides in an internal "church" matter? Why? Would anyone who is not a Jew even DREAM of getting involved in religious debates going on between, say, the Orthodox and the Reformed Jews? WHY is everything so often considered the business of Jewish interests? And how do they get away with acting like that?


Quote:You see as a fully paid up feminist, I demand and expect total equality in my secular life and yet some would view what I accept as normal in my religious Jewish world, as anything but equal. Although believe me, no women in my personal Jewish life feel oppressed; if anything, they are in total control.


Sweetheart, your "secular life" doesn't include General Synods in Christian faith communities or The Church. Those are parts of other people's religious lives. GET IT? It has nothing, nada, zilch, zippo to do with YOU and with Jews.


Quote: I am not a particularly observant Jew day-to-day. However, I did grow up in the Orthodox arm of Judaism, and so hadn’t even seen a female rabbi until I was 21.

Sitting separately from the men in synagogue, preparing the food for the congregation with a female group and only ever observing blokes leading prayer services, just seems customary in my Jewish world. It is all I have even known. These practices feel sisterly, homely and most of all, normal - how things have always been. And for a religion based heavily on the power of tradition, altering the rules of the club has never even occurred to me.


Glad you're cozy. Now how's about leaving us alone so we can be cozy, too? You might have to find another hobby (I hear knitting is fun) but meddling in other people's business isn't a good way to go. What is it that makes you feel entitled to meddle like that? Who are you? Who do you think you are? Do you think Christians need your guidance?


Quote:That’s why for the last few months, while making a programme for Radio 4, exploring whether you can be an Orthodox Jew and a feminist, I have had my eyes opened to what an unexplainable taboo this really is.

Interestingly, many of the Orthodox Jewish women I approached to share their feelings on the matter, refused to talk publicly about it – fearing a kickback in their successful secular life – where they champion women’s rights. They don’t want to explain their hypocrisy. Nor do they feel they need to challenge it.

They can’t really justify it either; why they don’t feel comfortable with female leadership in one sphere but not in the other. “It’s just not traditional to have a woman rabbi,” shrugs an intelligent Jewish female lawyer friend of mine.

And, in a nutshell, that’s how I have always felt too.


But to Hell with those Christians who don't want women Bishops, right? They just need to suck it right up.


Quote:However, I also know that when my grandmother used to openly mistrust female GPs, her view was antiquated and just wasn’t based in truth. Likewise, when some of my male friends today ‘joke’ about their fears of having a female pilot or woman train driver, I don’t find their prejudiced views funny. And that’s because they are not; nor are they based on any form of logic.

She seems to be having real trouble distinguishing the secular world from the religious one, even, as we've seen, including Chrisian business as part of the "secular world." Maybe she just needs a good dictionary.

Quote: In the secular world, common sense must be the order of the day. It isn’t reasonable not to have women occupying the same roles as men and vice versa. But in a religious sphere, where faith is the binding force of a group of people, rationale has less sway or place. If you started applying logic to the beliefs held in most faiths, things would start to fall apart pretty quickly at the seams.

It may be that way in Judaism, but it isn't that way in Catholicism. In Catholicism, women can't be priests, but they can be math professors and doctors, with no disruption of logic to be seen.

Quote:Cue the increasing number of Jewish Orthodox feminists banging down my door to tell me we female Jews are ‘separate but equal’ and that I need to become more learned in the scriptures. Well the facts still remains, regardless of how educated you are in Orthodox Judaism, women aren’t permitted to be rabbis (in the fullest sense of the word – despite recent interesting developments).

Am I less ambitious in my religious life than I am in my secular one? Probably. These are not easy admissions to make. Do I feel the need to fight to change the religious world I infrequently inhabit? No. Not really.

No, you must reserve that energy for fighting to change the religious world Christians inhabit, right?

Quote:Do I think women should be allowed to become bishops? Yes! Of course! It’s not my religion, after all. (Please note the intended facetiousness of this statement).

It'd be "facetious" if you hadn't "lent support" to that cause. But you meddled. Maybe you donated money, or picketed, who knows? But in some way you "lent support." Sorry, I'm not laughing at that. It's not funny.

Quote:Not being able to reconcile my secular views with my religious ones is something I too, find hard to explain. Predominantly I struggle to feel comfortable with female rabbis because the Judaism that feels authentic to me is the Orthodox branch, which does everything it can to conserve and not change.

And that’s what it comes down to: what part of your religion feels authentic to you – which is very hard to alter when it’s been presented to you in a certain way since birth.

Yeah, we Catholics kinda like our religion, too. It'd be great if we could have it as our own and not have outsiders telling us how to run things and sticking their noses into our business (see http://www.fisheaters.com/jewsvaticanii.html ). Having your religion and wanting -- and being ABLE -- to keep it intact, meddling in the religion of others and getting applauded for it, being a "women shouldn't be rabbis" trad and still having a gig as an Editor at The Telegraph -- must be nice to be you...

Quote:Male-led religions present a big dilemma to feminists in the modern world. And yes, on this topic, I am a full fat hypocrite. But as they say, faith begins often where logic ends.

...but it's better to be me, an adherent to a Faith that doesn't eschew logic. A Faith with IESUS at its center.

P.S. You missed the Messiah. He came 2,000 years ago. I hope you look into that.


Always remember liberalism is a mental disorder, these are crazy people
I'm so confused... and confused... and...

I just feel flabbergasted, I think.

I mean, on one level she recognizes the paradox.

Quote:Do I think women should be allowed to become bishops? Yes! Of course! It’s not my religion, after all. (Please note the intended facetiousness of this statement).

I keep coming back to that statement. I'm undecided which part is in fact facetious about her statement. Is it the bishop part, or the "not my religion" part?