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Full Version: Question: ...a certain Martin Luther was a monk, what does that tell us...?
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about monastic life?

I am not saying that he is a good example but does it say anything at all about monasticism or about the Augustinian order in general or about St. Augustine him self. After all one of the favorite saints of the so called reformers (including Calvin) was St. Augustine.
It tells us that no one is immune from temptation, and we are all free to make our own choices, whether to submit and obey or rebel and make our own path. God doesn't revoke a man's free will when he becomes a monk or a priest, we still have to live a life of conversion and repentance no matter our vocation.
Pretty much all the leading historical heretics were clergy or monks or royalty because to effectively develop and promote a heresy, it generally took the kind of learning, access to books and other resources, passionate interest in religion or political motivations, and free time only they had.  

Various heretics historically also really liked St. Paul and of course Our Lord Himself, so the fact that some heretics liked St. Augustine isn't really an issue.

(03-25-2014, 04:20 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty much all the leading historical heretics were clergy or monks or royalty because to effectively develop and promote a heresy, it generally took the kind of learning, access to books and other resources, passionate interest in religion or political motivations, and free time only they had.  

Various heretics historically also really liked St. Paul and of course Our Lord Himself, so the fact that some heretics liked St. Augustine isn't really an issue.

On that note I thought it interesting that Our Lord Him self said to the Pharisees that they would be accused by Moses, I wonder if the same goes for the heretics if their principle accusers will be the Saints that they claim to admire.
(03-25-2014, 02:56 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]about monastic life?

I am not saying that he is a good example but does it say anything at all about monasticism or about the Augustinian order in general or about St. Augustine him self. After all one of the favorite saints of the so called reformers (including Calvin) was St. Augustine.

Well, first, he wasn't a monk he was an Augustinian Friar.

Secondly - he had hemorrhoids - perhaps people with hemorrhoids are prone to heresy?
(03-25-2014, 05:53 PM)triumphguy Wrote: [ -> ]
(03-25-2014, 02:56 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]about monastic life?

I am not saying that he is a good example but does it say anything at all about monasticism or about the Augustinian order in general or about St. Augustine him self. After all one of the favorite saints of the so called reformers (including Calvin) was St. Augustine.

Well, first, he wasn't a monk he was an Augustinian Friar.

Secondly - he had hemorrhoids - perhaps people with hemorrhoids are prone to heresy?

Hey, be nice! Wink
Omnia malo a clero?
(03-25-2014, 02:56 PM)Unum Sint Wrote: [ -> ]about monastic life?

I am not saying that he is a good example but does it say anything at all about monasticism or about the Augustinian order in general or about St. Augustine him self. After all one of the favorite saints of the so called reformers (including Calvin) was St. Augustine.

You might as well say that the "Reformers" were Catholics, and thus Catholicism is erroneous.

Protestants co-opt and corrupt Augustine as they do all the Fathers.  They - the more intelligent breed of them, as the rest don't even know what the Church Fathers are nor anything else of the early history of the Church - realize that if it can be shown that the early Church was thoroughly Catholic, Protestantism is still-born. 

And the early Church was indeed thoroughly Catholic, in every major way, in every point of "disagreement" between Protestantism and the true faith.

Any number of quotes from St. Augustine demonstrate readily he was a Catholic.  (Here's one, paraphrased: "I would not believe the Scriptures if the Catholic Church did not tell me they were true.")
Moral: [i]Corruptio optimorum pessima[ /i] -- the corruption of the best things is the worst. He could have been, no doubt, a very good monk if he had decided to; since he went the opposite direction, he came up with a heresy that still plagues us to this day.
(03-25-2014, 11:52 PM)Poche Wrote: [ -> ]Omnia malo a clero?

This is only true in a relative manner, by the mode of communication; in truth, all evil and heresy comes from the heart of every sort of fallen man, but the clergy just have opportunity to teach it in public. Wink There have been many evils and heresies accepted by the laity. Both sides are culpable: the one for teaching, the one for accepting.

(03-26-2014, 12:01 AM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]Any number of quotes from St. Augustine demonstrate readily he was a Catholic.  (Here's one, paraphrased: "I would not believe the Scriptures if the Catholic Church did not tell me they were true.")

ACT, where does this quote come from? Why is it necessary to paraphrase it? Where is the source? What is the citation?

You see, when I was a protestant (Anglican), I was utterly convinced that most Catholics just take the Fathers out of context or simply make up quotes. There are, for example, words attributed to many of the Fathers in St. Alphonsus de Liguori's "The Glories of Mary" which cannot be found in any known patristic writings. He never sources his quotes, nor gives citation. Protestants have occasion to laugh at this laxity.

I'm still pretty much convinced that many of the Fathers held positions which we might call Protestant, and many (often the same men) held positions which we would call (Roman) Catholic. Protestants have found much evidence of this; for example, Athanasius 39th festal letter, in which he lists a scripture canon equal to the Protestant canon.

There is, in the end, no sureness or firmness of foundation in the opinions of men. I receive the Fathers which are received by the holy living Magisterium of the Church. That is the only way.
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