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These errors are in full force.  May God have mercy on us!  Pray





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That was a great video.

Very timely, as I just finished up a book by St. Gregory of Nyssa (Commentaries on the Our Father and Beatitudes), and understand that he held many of the views of Origen, as did St. Gregory Nazienzen  and St. Clement of Alexandria.

How is it that Origen was anathematized and these others are saints ?  Did they repent of the "universal salvation" stance ?
Hello Gidge,
As I said somewhere else, there are plenty more problems with Origen than just the universalism. See, for instance, the Anathemas against Origen of the Second Council of Constantinople: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm
I thought what got Origen in trouble was not Origen him self but his followers after his death and how his works were interpreted. Or at least that is what I have read about the issues with him.
Wonderfully  informative video, thank you M Voris  Tip o' the hat


I think a lot more people make it into Heaven than a lot of Catholics believe, and praise God for that, if that's the case. But when I hear of people not believing in Hell, I remember the story of a little girl named Onowanique. I read about her years ago, and though I'm a big reader of "True Crime" books and can withstand reading a lot about human evil with a rather pragmatic eye, a "cop's eye," something about this little girl and what happened to her just cut me to the quick. I saved her picture on my hard drive, where it's been for years and years, and once in a while I look at it, and I think about her, this precious, beautiful little baby, her enduring what was done to her, her parents (Christ, have mercy!) going through the process, step by step, of what they did. And I know that if there is no Hell, then there is no Justice and nothing makes sense.

Here's her picture. This is Onowanique --

[Image: Onawanique.jpg]

-- and this is what this precious little girl had done to her:
The Story of Onowanique Wrote:Parents cut up crying tot and fed her to dogs; They confess to dissolving part of body in battery acid.

A couple killed their baby daughter and fed parts of her body to dogs because she wouldn't stop crying.

They cut off 16-month-old Onowanique Tribblet's limbs and soaked her torso in a tub of battery acid for several weeks to dissolve it.

Her hands, feet and forearm were fried in a pan and left to be eaten by dogs and other animals.

And her head was put in a blender which had been borrowed from neighbours.

Last night, detectives were still searching for Onowanique's remains.

But they fear most of them will never be found.

Details of the killing emerged yesterday as her parents appeared in court in Chicago.

Everett Johnson and pregnant Joan Tribblet, who have three other children, confessed to murdering Onowanique in their flat in December.

They said they were frustrated by her crying and because she would not sleep through the night.

The couple are charged with murder and concealing a killing, and face the death penalty.

Police say the parents either battered or strangled the toddler and then dismembered her.

Johnson, 29, and 27-year-old Tribblet were arrested after Onowanique's concerned maternal grandmother reported her missing.

She told police she didn't believe her daughter's story that the girl was being looked after by another relative.

Police swooped on the couple's home in the tough West Side area of Chicago and took them in for questioning.

After several hours, Johnson and Tribblet broke down and confessed.

Detectives also began door-to-door enquiries in another part of the city where the family used to live before starting a search for the child's remains.

Detective Robert Cornfield said: "No one can recall a more horrific or unspeakable case than this. The body was dissolved in a container of battery acid for four to six weeks."

Thomas Epach, prosecuting, told the court: "There were portions that had been cooked up that Johnson then basically distributed at another location so that dogs and vermin would get the child."

Tribblet shifted uncomfortably in the dock and kept her head down and her eyes closed. Johnson stood expressionless during the hearing.

Judge William Wise described the killing as "despicable" and turned down their request for bail. They are now awaiting trial.

Yesterday, stunned neighbours gathered on street corners after hearing of the killing.

One, LeRoy Williams, said: "We all feel sick to our stomachs. That poor baby - I just can't imagine what those parents were thinking.

"You used to see the family around but you don't stop to count how many kids there are."

Leah Stewart, who lived next door to the couple before they recently moved, said Onowanique "wasn't any bigger than a handbag" when she last saw her.

She added: "We saw all the other kids and we didn't see her. They told us she was with her grandparents."

The couple's three other children - a nine-month-old girl, a boy of three and a six-year-old girl - are being cared for by an aunt.

One detective said: "This was a deliberate and protracted attempt to destroy every bit of evidence.

"For four to six weeks that poor baby's remains were being dissolved in acid.

"Other parts had been chopped up, fried, fed to animals or put in a blender.

"This is sick, sick, sick. What happened to this baby is unspeakable."

And that, even aside from my intellectual submission to the traditional teachings of the Church, is why I believe Hell  exists.

And you know, for all the folks saying they believe in Heaven but don't believe in Hell, I'd bet a good half of them would have their little exceptions. "No, I don't believe in Hell. OK, well, maybe for reallllllly bad people like Hitler" is a phrase I can easily imagine coming to those folks' minds. Or maybe it'd be Fred Phelps or people like him. Or all those exes out there who were unfaithful and broke people's hearts. Or the bad guys who murdered their loved ones. Talked about abstractly, lots of folks say they don't believe in Hell, and say things like, "I can't believe in a 'god' that'd send people to Hell!" (as if God's doing the sending rather than people sending themselves there by their own actions). But bring up the one person who's personally affected them in a horrible way, or, of course, bring up Hitler (forget "Stalin Who?" who mostly killed Christians), and suddenly they like the idea. People are funny.


FWIW:




And there's this from Pope St. Gregory the Great:

Gregory the Great
Dialogues, Book IV


Chapter Thirty-six: of those souls which seem as it were through error to be taken out of their bodies: and of the death and reviving of a monk calleo Peter: of the death, likewise, and raising up again of one Stephen: and of the strange vision of a certain soldier.

GREGORY. When this happeneth, Peter, it is not, if it be well considered, any error, but an admonition. For God of his great and bountiful mercy so disposeth, that some after their death do straightways return again to life, that having seen the torments of hell, which before when they heard they would not believe, they may now at least tremble at, after they have with their eyes beheld them. For a certain Sclavonion, who was a monk and lived with me here in this city in my Monastery, used to tell me that at such time as he dwelt in the wilderness, that he knew one Peter, a monk born in Spain, who lived with him in the vast desert called Evasa  which Peter (as he said) told him how, before he came to dwell in that place, by a certain sickness he died, and was straightways restored to life again, affirming that he had seen the torments and innumerable places of hell, and divers, who were mighty men in this world, hanging in those flames; and that as himself was carried to be thrown also into the same fire, suddenly an Angel in a beautiful attire appeared, who would not suffer him to be cast into those torments: but spake unto him in this manner: "Go thy way back again, and hereafter carefully look unto thyself, how thou leadest thy life": after which words his body by little and little became warm, and himself, waking out of the sleep of everlasting death, reported all such things as happened about him: after which time he bound himself to such fasting and watching, that though he had said nothing, yet his very life and conversation did speak what torments he had seen and was afraid of: and so God's merciful providence wrought in his temporal death that he died not everlastingly.

But because man's heart is passing obdurate and hard, hereof it cometh that though others have the like vision, and see the same pains, yet do they not always reap the like profit. For the honourable man Stephen, whom you knew very well, told me of himself, that at such time as he was upon business resident in the city of Constantinople, that he fell sick and died; and when they sought for a surgeon to bowel him, and to embalm his body, and could not get any, he lay unburied all the night following: in which space his soul was carried to the dungeon of hell, where he saw many things, which before when he heard he little believed. But when he was brought before the judge that sat there, he would not admit him to his presence, saying: "I commanded not this man to be brought, but Stephen the smith ": upon which words he was straightway restored to life, and Stephen the smith, that dwelled hard by, at that very hour departed this life: whose death did show that the words which he heard were most true. But though the foresaid Stephen escaped death in this manner at that time, yet three years since, in that mortality which lamentably wasted this city (and in which, as you know, men with their corporal eyes did behold arrows that came from heaven, which did strike divers), the same man ended his days: at which time a certain soldier being also brought to the point of death, his soul was in such sort carried out of his body, that he lay void of all sense and feeling, but coming quickly again to himself, he told them that were present, what strange things he had seen. For he said (as many report that know it very well) that he saw a bridge, under which a black and smoky river did run, that had a filthy and intolerable smell: but upon the farther side thereof there were pleasant green meadows full of sweet flowers, in which also there were divers companies of men apparelled in white: and such a delicate savour there was, that the fragrant odour thereof did give wonderful content to all them that dwelt and walked in that place. Divers particular mansions also there were, all shining with brightness and light, and especially one magnificent and sumptuous house which was a building, the brick whereof seemed to be of gold, but whose it was, that he knew not.

There were also upon the bank of the foresaid river certain houses, but some of them the stinking vapour which rose from the river did touch, and some other it touched not at all. Now those that desired to pass over the foresaid bridge, were subject to this manner of trial: if any that was wicked attempted to go over, down he fell into that dark and stinking river; but those that were just and not hindered by sin, securely and easily passed over to those pleasant and delicate places. There he said also that he saw Peter, who was steward of the Pope's family, and died some four years since, thrust into a most filthy place, where he was bound and kept down with a great weight of iron: and inquiring why he was so used, he received that answer, which all we that knew his life can affirm to be most true: for it was told him that he suffered that pain, because when himself was upon any occasion to punish other, that he did it more upon cruelty than to shew his obedience; of which his merciless disposition none that knew him can be ignorant. There also he said that he saw a Priest whom he knew: who coming to the foresaid bridge, passed over with as great security, as he lived in this world sincerely.

Likewise, upon the same bridge he said that he did see this Stephen, whom before we spake of, who being about to go over, his foot slipped, and half his body hanging beside the bridge, he was of certain terrible men, that rose out of the river, drawn by the legs downward: and by certain other white and beautiful persons, he was by the arms pulled upward: and whiles they strove thus, the wicked spirits to draw him downward, and the good to lift him upward, he that beheld all this strange sight returned to life, not knowing in conclusion what became of him. By which miraculous vision we learn thisvthing concerning the life of Stephen, to wit, that in him the sins of the flesh did strive with his works of alms. For in that he was by the legs drawn downward, and by the arms plucked upward, apparent it is, that both he loved to give alms, and yet did not perfectly resist the sins of the flesh, which did pull him downward: but in that secret examination of the supreme judge, which of them had the victory, that neither we know, nor he that saw it. Yet most certain it is, that the same Stephen, after that he had seen the places of hell, as before was said, and returned again to his body, did never perfectly amend his former wicked life, seeing many years after he departed this world, leaving us in doubt whether he were saved or damned. Whereby we may learn, that when any have the torments of hell shewn them, that to some it is for their commodity, and to others for their testimony: that the former may see those miseries to avoid them, and these other to be so much the more punished, in that they would not take heed of those torments, which they both knew and with their eyes beheld.

PETER. What, I beseech you, was meant by the building of that house in those places of delight, with bricks of gold? For it seemeth very ridiculous, that in the next life we should have need of any such kind of metal.

What is meant by the building of the house in those pleasant places. And of one Deusdedit, whose house was seen to be built upon the Saturday.54

GREGORY. What man of sense can think so? but by that which was shewn there, whosoever he was, for whom that house was built, we learn plainly what virtuous works he did in this world: for he that by plenty of alms doth merit the reward of eternal light, certain it is, that he doth build his house with gold. For the same soldier who had this vision said also, which I forgot before to tell you, that old men, and young, girls, and boys, did carry those bricks of gold for the building of that house: by which we learn that those to whom we shew compassion in this world, do labour for us in the next. There dwelt also hard by us a religious man, called Deusdedit, who was a shoemaker, concerning whom another saw by revelation that he had in the next world an house a building; but the workmen thereof laboured only upon the Saturday. Who afterward enquiring more diligently how he lived, found that whatsoever he got by his labour all the week, and was not spent upon necessary provision of meat and apparel, all that upon the Saturday he bestowed upon the poor in alms at St. Peter's church: and therefore see what reason there was, that his building went forward upon the Saturday.

PETER. You have given me very good satisfaction touching this one point: yet desirous I am further to know, what the reason was that some of those habitations were touched, by the stinking vapour, and some were not; and what is meant by the bridge and river which he saw.

GREGORY. By the representation of these things, Peter, are expressed the causes which they do signify. For the bridge, by which he beheld God's servants to pass unto those pleasant places, doth teach us that the path is verystrait which leadeth to everlasting life: and the stinking river, which he saw running beneath, signifieth that the filthy corruption of vice in this world doth daily run to the downfall of carnal pleasure. And that some of the habitations were touched with the stinking vapour, and some were not, what is meant else, but that there be divers which do many good works, yet in their soul they are touched with the delight of carnal sins? and therefore very great reason there is, that in the next world such should taste of a stinking vapour, whom filthy carnality did delight in this; and therefore blessed Job, perceiving the pleasure of the flesh to be stinking, pronounceth this sentence of the wanton and carnal man: His sweetness be worms. But those that do preserve their heart free from all pleasure of carnal thoughts, have not their houses touched with any such stinking vapour: and here we have also to note, that he saw one and the same thing both to be a vapour and also to have an ill savour, because carnal delight doth so obscure the soul which it hath infected, that it can not see the brightness of true light: for the more pleasure it hath in the inferior part, the more darkness it hath in the superior, which doth hinder it from the contemplation of heavenly mysteries.

(04-04-2014, 02:39 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Hello Gidge,
As I said somewhere else, there are plenty more problems with Origen than just the universalism. See, for instance, the Anathemas against Origen of the Second Council of Constantinople: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm

Thanks for the link !  It's too bad Hans Urs von Balthasar (and others) brought these heterodox views back into vogue and now we see so many march merrily down the road to perdition as a result.  It appears that many of the church fathers believed in the apokatastasis  at one time or another, the difference, I believe(see link below) is that the other church fathers left the question to God, rather than asserting (as Origen seems to have) that all, including the devil and his angels will be restored eventually.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm
(04-05-2014, 08:46 AM)Gidge Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-04-2014, 02:39 PM)Renatus Frater Wrote: [ -> ]Hello Gidge,
As I said somewhere else, there are plenty more problems with Origen than just the universalism. See, for instance, the Anathemas against Origen of the Second Council of Constantinople: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm

Thanks for the link !  It's too bad Hans Urs von Balthasar (and others) brought these heterodox views back into vogue and now we see so many march merrily down the road to perdition as a result.  It appears that many of the church fathers believed in the apokatastasis  at one time or another, the difference, I believe(see link below) is that the other church fathers left the question to God, rather than asserting (as Origen seems to have) that all, including the devil and his angels will be restored eventually.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

Balthasar's views are roughly approximate to the Nyssen's views (in fact, Gregory of Nyssa may have been a bit more willing to assert it than Balthasar). 

The possibility of apokatastasis was never heterodox.

Origen had much bigger problems than apokatastasis; in fact, that was the least of the issues with his thought.