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http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/catholicity/

As usual, he's got some fightin' words.

Words that tell it like it is, that is.

(For those who want to know more about Louie, who came to Tradition relatively recently, after around a decade of being a Novus Ordo Star, see the video post before this one.)
A quote:

"Think about it: If, at any time prior to 1960, a “fictional” movie were made portraying the reality of the present pontificate, Catholics and non-Catholics alike would dismiss it as laughably unrealistic. Why? Because all too frequently, Francis doesn’t speak like a Catholic, behave like a Catholic, or give evidence of even thinking like a Catholic; at least not as Catholics have spoken, behaved and thought for the last two thousand years.

Of course, we can say this about every Roman Pontiff who came after “the Good Pope John” naively opened the windows of the Church to the world, but all of them, apart from Pope Francis, exhibited at least some fundamental awareness that Hell had managed to break loose in the Catholic Church.

Paul VI, for instance, smelled the “smoke of Satan;” John Paul II discerned a “silent apostasy,” and Benedict XVI decried “arbitrary deformations” in the sacred liturgy.

Each one of them, in other words, seemed to understand that the Church had become too worldly; whereas Pope Francis appears to believe that she hasn’t become nearly worldly enough. And why? Because he lacks the baseline Catholic character that his predecessors, in spite of their own modernist tendencies, still managed to possess in some degree.

Perhaps this is a function of Francis being the first pope who clerically came of age entirely in the post-conciliar era."
(04-05-2014, 08:27 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]A quote:

"Think about it: If, at any time prior to 1960, a “fictional” movie were made portraying the reality of the present pontificate, Catholics and non-Catholics alike would dismiss it as laughably unrealistic. Why? Because all too frequently, Francis doesn’t speak like a Catholic, behave like a Catholic, or give evidence of even thinking like a Catholic; at least not as Catholics have spoken, behaved and thought for the last two thousand years.

Of course, we can say this about every Roman Pontiff who came after “the Good Pope John” naively opened the windows of the Church to the world, but all of them, apart from Pope Francis, exhibited at least some fundamental awareness that Hell had managed to break loose in the Catholic Church.

Paul VI, for instance, smelled the “smoke of Satan;” John Paul II discerned a “silent apostasy,” and Benedict XVI decried “arbitrary deformations” in the sacred liturgy.

Each one of them, in other words, seemed to understand that the Church had become too worldly; whereas Pope Francis appears to believe that she hasn’t become nearly worldly enough. And why? Because he lacks the baseline Catholic character that his predecessors, in spite of their own modernist tendencies, still managed to possess in some degree.

Perhaps this is a function of Francis being the first pope who clerically came of age entirely in the post-conciliar era."

It's such faux-homogeneity that undermines these arguments.

And even if a monologizing rhetoric had been dominant for 2,000 years, that hardly justifies it. Francis is the true inheritor of V2 (shock, horror, grab a rosary and say something in Latin!) because he acknowledges the overarching ecclesiology described by that holy Council - the "smoke of Satan" in the Church doesn't refer to the Vatican alone, just as the Mystical Body - the Church in her hypostatic relationship with Christ - extends itself through time and space in redemption of humanity and fallen reality. The Church is much larger than many of you would have her be, and the vision this entails requires the humility so many of you find suspiciously irksome in a pontiff. There can never be an imperial pope in tiara and diadem waving at soldiers from his princely city because those falsities are untenable in a world that has undergone the chastisement of the Shoah, of 9/11, of countless genocides and moral indignations at the service of human vanity.

If the Church is enduring hell then we might do well to remember Christ's radical descent into that place of godlessness, where God overwhelms not-God in service of love.
(04-05-2014, 08:39 PM)loggats Wrote: [ -> ]The Church is much larger than many of you would have her be, and the vision this entails requires the humility so many of you find suspiciously irksome in a pontiff. There can never be an imperial pope in tiara and diadem waving at soldiers from his princely city because those falsities are untenable in a world that has undergone the chastisement of the Shoah, of 9/11, of countless genocides and moral indignations at the service of human vanity.

If the Church is enduring hell then we might do well to remember Christ's radical descent into that place of godlessness, where God overwhelms not-God in service of love.

loggats, I respect you and agree with much of what you say, but in this post you were engaging in chronological snobbery. The Shoah and 9/11 are horrid, but what are 6 million Jews and 3000 Americans to the tens of millions who died in the Great Plague? What of disasters, horrors, tyrants, and persecutions? Mongols? Huns? The Roman Empire? What of men boiled alive, hanged, drowned, and stabbed? Popes felt comfortable wearing a tiara and speaking with strong conviction on the indissolubility of the ancient faith over and against the ephemeral nature of this World and its false religions for many centuries.

We do not live in some specially-privileged age of horrors, terrors, and monstrosities that entitle us to believe we've seen the worst in mankind that was missed by earlier generations. There was plenty in human history to terrify popes into submission and this sort of "nice humility" that people seem to see in Francis, and yet so many Popes did not fall to it. There can be no excuse for watering things down simply because we've seen the Holocaust. My goodness, the seed of the Nazis was already in mankind 4000 years ago, and its bitter fruit has blossomed many times before.

None of this has to do with Francis, really... I just wanted to point out how dishonest this approach can potentially be in discourse.
(04-05-2014, 08:16 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/catholicity/

As usual, he's got some fightin' words.

Words that tell it like it is, that is.

(For those who want to know more about Louie, who came to Tradition relatively recently, after around a decade of being a Novus Ordo Star, see the video post before this one.)

I find the picture he uses very offensive. I would actually slap Verrechio if he were in front of me.
(04-05-2014, 10:49 PM)Heorot Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-05-2014, 08:39 PM)loggats Wrote: [ -> ]The Church is much larger than many of you would have her be, and the vision this entails requires the humility so many of you find suspiciously irksome in a pontiff. There can never be an imperial pope in tiara and diadem waving at soldiers from his princely city because those falsities are untenable in a world that has undergone the chastisement of the Shoah, of 9/11, of countless genocides and moral indignations at the service of human vanity.

If the Church is enduring hell then we might do well to remember Christ's radical descent into that place of godlessness, where God overwhelms not-God in service of love.

loggats, I respect you and agree with much of what you say, but in this post you were engaging in chronological snobbery. The Shoah and 9/11 are horrid, but what are 6 million Jews and 3000 Americans to the tens of millions who died in the Great Plague? What of disasters, horrors, tyrants, and persecutions? Mongols? Huns? The Roman Empire? What of men boiled alive, hanged, drowned, and stabbed? Popes felt comfortable wearing a tiara and speaking with strong conviction on the indissolubility of the ancient faith over and against the ephemeral nature of this World and its false religions for many centuries.

We do not live in some specially-privileged age of horrors, terrors, and monstrosities that entitle us to believe we've seen the worst in mankind that was missed by earlier generations. There was plenty in human history to terrify popes into submission and this sort of "nice humility" that people seem to see in Francis, and yet so many Popes did not fall to it. There can be no excuse for watering things down simply because we've seen the Holocaust. My goodness, the seed of the Nazis was already in mankind 4000 years ago, and its bitter fruit has blossomed many times before.

None of this has to do with Francis, really... I just wanted to point out how dishonest this approach can potentially be in discourse.

This has plenty to do with Francis, in as much as he is pope at this particular period in our human history.

This is an age unlike any other. Late Modernity has stretched us to the absolute limit in terms of what it means to be cognizant human entities, in relation to one another and our God. We are questioning meta-narratives, jettisoning the stability of thousands of years, undermining the most basic layers of our identity  (eg. sexuality, gender) and capable of effecting transformations at a genetic level. We are able to leave this planet materially, we are able to codify the genome, we have the ability to eradicate all life with a few well placed weapons.  The dishonesty (and ignorance) here is that people seem to believe that we are just the same, nothing really changes, a medieval perspective is "essentially" the same as that of the French Revolution, isn't all that different from Ancient Rome, will be quite similar to whatever we are in a hundred thousand years from now.

We are foreign to one another, separated by a distance of flesh and blood, let alone the insurmountable chasm imposed by linear time. The Shoah and 9/11 were deaths of individuals in a way that the Black Plague was still struggling to understand. The idea of the individual was certainly a "seed" but not yet a ripened fruit. And today not only is that fruit ripe, it's practically rotting. If it gives you comfort to pretend that the 21st century is just another spoke in an endlessly turning wheel of history, that's your affair. But there is no circle, there is no "one death is quite like another." No two things are alike. The holocaust of Jews is not like the death by disease of countless Europeans. Each moment draws us ever closer to the Parousia. Whether that happens tomorrow or in a million years, this must be our guiding star. Otherwise we truly are lost, and just as clueless as the wretched sea of humanity who proceeded us in inexorable procession towards the End.

loggats, I admire that post. I agree with the second paragraph completely - especially with regards to the fact that everything brings us one step closer to the Parousia, and that there is no such thing as cyclical time in God's plan. The only thing going-about-in-circles is human sinfulness.

What I find almost shocking, however, is your assertion that our "late" modernity - as if the End Is Near simply because our petty little human culture is technologically & philosophically different from the past - is somehow creating a radical disconnection from conventional understanding of humanity. Sure, the Shoah and 9/11, etc., are different from past destruction, but in the end gas is much the same as a bullet or a sword. Civilians and soldiers are equally human. Why should the new forms of depravity mark a shift in the human story? We're just as sinful as before. Our 'gender' and 'identity' remain male and female, human. Simply because there are fat-headed atheistic & agnostic philosophers advocating for altered conceptions of consciousness does not change the objective truths of the faith, right?

So, we can leave Earth materially. We can go beyond the clouds. We can walk on the moon. What are those things to God? You seem to make all these statements from a purely humanistic point-of-view. I am not sure if you are focusing only on humanity from a secular mindset, here, or if you believe our relationship to God is itself changed by our tech & thought. We've always been separate and isolated from each other - that's partly what sin is, after all.

To be honest, I do believe men generally do not change. People are disgusting - me included. That is the Fall. Every man is born a sinner and must come to Christ, no matter the day, the age, the hour, or the philosophy underlying their background. I also admit that as an atheist, I was haunted by the way history repeats itself, and the meaningless Heat Death or Big Freeze or Black-Hole-Era to which we are headed. This fear has not left me, nor has it left the hearts of many human beings today. Francis' attitude may be helpful, but we desperately need truth right now, not more equivocation. Relativism, subjectivism, existentialism, and all the other poisonous secularist doctrines, are not merely organic developments of the human consciousness through history - they are attacks of Hell against the One who is perpetually the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Sorry to be preachy. I believe you are sincere, and it is nice to see that.
I believe you're sincere too, which makes it somewhat heartbreaking. God became Human for a reason. Our ongoing conversation with God is meaningful. The things we do, we achieve, we believe are precious to our God. They're not just disgusting distractions before we "wake up" and return to God - they are in and of themselves the thrust towards the All in All.

Perfect love drives out fear, Heorot. That's the banner under which we will approach the Eschaton, or none at all.

Re. the graphic at the top, with the words, "One of these men is not like the other":  I think I spotted the difference! One isn't sepia-toned! Do I win something?!



(04-06-2014, 12:09 AM)triumphguy Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-05-2014, 08:16 PM)A Catholic Thinker Wrote: [ -> ]http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/catholicity/

As usual, he's got some fightin' words.

Words that tell it like it is, that is.

(For those who want to know more about Louie, who came to Tradition relatively recently, after around a decade of being a Novus Ordo Star, see the video post before this one.)

I find the picture he uses very offensive. I would actually slap Verrechio if he were in front of me.


I agree.  There are just some things that are to be kept in you heart.  I don't think that Our Dear Lord would approve of this picture either. 
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